let's show d3 what we think.

Twysta

gobstopper wrote:

You do realize there was just another server issue last night right?

I think you'll find it was (all) our internet connections.
The in game message told me so.

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

atlasspeaks wrote:

immortal characters? i guess you failed to read the part about upping the difficulty of the AI. icex has stated that the AI used to be much more advanced, aka, wiped players like it was taking a giant dump on them with glee in its eyes. if the ability of the AI was boosted to wipe a team maybe 10% of the time, it'd be perfect and would not make any 3* "functionally immortal". plus it'd make games challenging and would make people think about their actions and future cascades instead of how now people can relatively safely just connect the first 5 match then 4 match then 3 match that they see, ad naseum.

Apologies. I couldn't translate "raise the AI intelligence maybe 10-20% to make games more challenging." into "tweak the AI so it consistently & completely wipes a wide array of team comps 10% of the time, using a similarly wide array of team comps". I'll make note of that for the future.

Also, I rarely run OBW in my PVP teams, and don't have a viable Spidey, so when it comes your fantastical world of wondrous healer-optional joy, it seems I'm already in it. It's the current system.

atlasspeaks wrote:

assuming that each game a player plays on average is around 5 minutes, that would mean one complete wipe every 45 minutes or so. most players that have good 3* rosters have their A and B team, so assuming they have 2 full 3* teams they'd get an average of around 1.5 hours of playtime before their teams are wiped, then they have their 5 health packs to fall back on, giving them another almost full 1.5 hours (minus one health pack) which is a very reasonable amount of time. of course the exact specifications would need to be tested and vetted, but as it stands, my solution is leagues better than the current system.

So... your major overhaul of MPQ's basic PVP mechanics is designed for players with 4+ well-leveled 3* characters? I fall into that group, but as you've described it so far, I don't see how that's "leagues better" for players in general.

atlasspeaks wrote:

so yeah, your inconclusive thinking about my solution was terrible, not the solution.

Sorry I couldn't read the paragraphs you hid and continue to hide between the lines.

atlasspeaks wrote:

my solution gives players extreme amounts of freedom, flexibility, a challenge and most of all, more fun.

You've essentially replaced health-pack wait times with boosted-AI wipeout wait times, and made the AI vaguely harder, resulting in somewhat longer time limits on 3* PVP pushes. I don't see the extremeness.

<insult removed> My original idea was and is sound. i guess you decided to gloss over the part about making the game more challenging by raising AI level so people don't just match whatever they see first. this would directly make games longer because people would actually have to pay attention to what matches they make and plan for cascades, even if it's a single one. the 10% wipe idea was just that, an IDEA, and you are focusing way too much on the numbers of an IDEA. i'm sure the devs could flesh it out better, but as it stands, that idea is far better than your lack of ideas and insult throwing.

maybe you don't run obw or spidey, but up until the spidey nerf almost any competitive 2* team had obw and any competitive 3* team had spidey (and even now any competitive 2* team/transitioning 2*/3* team runs obw). are you really going to ignore those facts that point how strong healers are and how they're not run really for team composition or for fun value on most teams, but because teams want to be as close to full health for the next fight as possible? people even state how much they hate running healers because it's slow and boring but that they do it because they have no other choice. if you ignore those facts then this entire conversation is over your head.

and yes, i've traded health pack wait times which, face it, isn't a key factor for most players since even with full health packs you can only revive a full team once and most of us don't want to pay for them, for a smarter AI and less grindy pvp pushes. and if you can't see the extreme amounts of freedom let me spell it out for you (again) since you didn't get it the first time. being able to have ANY team comp at any time without worrying about healing is extreme for most but the most elite players in the current playstyle. being challenged by a smarter AI without having to get occasionally wiped by only bad cascades is extreme in the current playstyle and having more fun is getting to be pretty extreme in the current playstyle.

so basically, if you don't have anything productive to add <insult removed>, then you might want to use your energies elsewhere.

HailMary

atlasspeaks wrote:

not sure why you enjoy being such a **** but my original idea was and is sound.

Simply repeatedly claiming that your idea is great doesn't actually make it great.

atlasspeaks wrote:

i guess you decided to gloss over the part about making the game more challenging by raising AI level so people don't just match whatever they see first. this would directly make games longer because people would actually have to pay attention to what matches they make and plan for cascades, even if it's a single one.

People already complain about the AI getting "miracle" cascades occasionally wiping them out. They complain about it constantly. I don't see why making the AI get even more cascades would make players in general think the game is more fun.

atlasspeaks wrote:

the 10% wipe idea was just that, an IDEA, and you are focusing way too much on the numbers of an IDEA. i'm sure the devs could flesh it out better, but as it stands, that idea is far better than your lack of ideas and insult throwing.

You said that your "just an IDEA" was "leagues better" than the status quo and would cause "extreme amounts of freedom, [etc., etc.]." It's nice that you have an idea, but I don't see how it's at all better than the current system, much less "leagues better." As for insults, I'm not the one whipping out ad hominems like grandkids' photos at an AARP convention.

atlasspeaks wrote:

maybe you don't run obw or spidey, but up until the spidey nerf almost any competitive 2* team had obw and any competitive 3* team had spidey (and even now any competitive 2* team/transitioning 2*/3* team runs obw). are you really going to ignore those facts that point how strong healers are and how they're not run really for team composition or for fun value on most teams, but because teams want to be as close to full health for the next fight as possible?

AFAIK, pre-nerf Spidey's dominance in both PVP and PVE was primarily due to stunlock. He's also wonderful for prologue healing, but his healing is less necessary when you're using his stunlock well. OBW's power comes at least as much from Recon as it does from healing, arguably more so since it simultaneously reduces damage taken (by delaying/denying enemy abilities) and accelerates your own ability to dish out damage -- healing doesn't do the latter. This is also why Hood, since before the Spidey nerf, has been such a powerful support character.

atlasspeaks wrote:

people even state how much they hate running healers because it's slow and boring but that they do it because they have no other choice. if you ignore those facts then this entire conversation is over your head.

Some people hold that opinion. Others don't. For example, Polarity, in his guide, leans toward the latter camp regarding Spidey. Further, the Punpun + OBW duo is pretty fun to field, and its massive popularity doesn't primarily stem from OBW's healing, but from Judgment + Espionage synergy.

atlasspeaks wrote:

and yes, i've traded health pack wait times which, face it, isn't a key factor for most players since even with full health packs you can only revive a full team once and most of us don't want to pay for them

So, you haven't seen the "ugh, D3 just wants us all to buy overpriced health packs because greeeeed" ranting in multiple forum threads lately?

atlasspeaks wrote:

and if you can't see the extreme amounts of freedom let me spell it out for you (again) since you didn't get it the first time. being able to have ANY team comp at any time without worrying about healing is extreme for most but the most elite players in the current playstyle. being challenged by a smarter AI without having to get occasionally wiped by only bad cascades is extreme in the current playstyle and having more fun is getting to be pretty extreme in the current playstyle.

Not worrying about active healing is already possible. Assuming that you mean "extremely liberating" when you say "extreme" all by its lonesome, I don't see how having the AI wipe you more often and more intelligently translates into "extreme amounts of freedom." If you make defensive AI more human, then you change the defensive meta to include more finesse-centric high-tier characters like CMags and GSBW, and you'd likely make OBW even more powerful since the AI will now (since it's not stupid anymore) try to get Recon even faster. The AI could even manage its own color tanking and hide OBW behind its tank(s), which makes OBW even deadlier.

atlasspeaks wrote:

so basically, if you don't have anything productive to add and insist on being a ****, then you might want to use your energies elsewhere.

Translation: "STFU & GTFO." Classy.

Twysta

Unknown

atlasspeaks wrote:

the solution is so easy...

as someone already suggested, make all characters heal to 100% after a match ends if the character didn't die. if it did, then use a health pack. health pack regeneration rate can stay the same or maybe slightly faster. make it so that dead characters do not come back unless a health pack is used. bam, no more 9 hour waits for hulk to be usable again.

to compensate for this, raise the AI intelligence maybe 10-20% to make games more challenging.

imagine a world where you don't need healers in a match... imagine a world where people would only use obw or any healer if that was their particular playstyle, where it wasn't seen as a crutch, where it wasn't seen as a weakness not to have obw... in this world healers would be used to compliment a slow-starting team, not as a way to just make it to the next fight at full health... healers would be totally optional to a team comp, not necessary... imagine a world where no one need to grind story mode for healing...

The "solution" to what? Think of all the problems this game has... which of them would autoheal fix?

Neither of the "healers" were used for their healing. Take away all their healing power, and old spidey still stunned, and OBW still steals AP and doubles on strike tiles. Making characters autoheal creates all sorts of problems - like we need LazyThor or Hulk to be even BETTER, and regen abilities to be all but pointless - and solves none

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

Simply repeatedly claiming that your idea is great doesn't actually make it great.

did i say great? nope, i did say it'd be better than what it is now and better than your lack of ideas.

HailMary wrote:

People already complain about the AI getting "miracle" cascades occasionally wiping them out. They complain about it constantly. I don't see why making the AI get even more cascades would make players in general think the game is more fun.

"miracle" cascades will always happen, no matter what. if people actually think about the moves they make, the number of preventable cascades would actually probably go down. i see no reason why the number of "miracle" cascades would change.

HailMary wrote:

You said that your "just an IDEA" was "leagues better" than the status quo and would cause "extreme amounts of freedom, [etc., etc.]." It's nice that you have an idea, but I don't see how it's at all better than the current system, much less "leagues better." As for insults, I'm not the one whipping out ad hominems like grandkids' photos at an AARP convention.

if you can't see that the benefits are letting players have much more flexible rosters then i don't have much more to say to you. if i insulted you, i apologize. i was just annoyed at your random nerd rage. you have been incredibly insulting to me for no (apparent) reason. i have no idea what your agenda is, but i have no desire to argue.

HailMary wrote:

AFAIK, pre-nerf Spidey's dominance in both PVP and PVE was primarily due to stunlock. He's also wonderful for prologue healing, but his healing is less necessary when you're using his stunlock well. OBW's power comes at least as much from Recon as it does from healing, arguably more so since it simultaneously reduces damage taken (by delaying/denying enemy abilities) and accelerates your own ability to dish out damage -- healing doesn't do the latter. This is also why Hood, since before the Spidey nerf, has been such a powerful support character.

i don't deny that spidey's claim to fame was stunlocking, but you can't just discount his ability to heal a team up to full during said stunlock. and yes, obw is powerful in all her abilities, but again, if you were to ask most players who field her WHY they field her, especially at the 2* and 3* transitional stages, i'm fairly sure the answer would be so that they can keep their roster at full health to keep playing, and not because they're titillated by her purple or black abilities. if she didn't have her heal most people would probably be running their hoods a lot more since his blue is superior.

atlasspeaks wrote:

people even state how much they hate running healers because it's slow and boring but that they do it because they have no other choice. if you ignore those facts then this entire conversation is over your head.

HailMary wrote:

Some people hold that opinion. Others don't. For example, Polarity, in his guide, leans toward the latter camp regarding Spidey. Further, the Punpun + OBW duo is pretty fun to field, and its massive popularity doesn't primarily stem from OBW's healing, but from Judgment + Espionage synergy.

if many players had a choice not to run obw 100% of the time i'm sure they would do just that, as fun and strong as obw + punisher is. i don't think a survey needs to be taken to show that most people hate seeing obw and how stale it is to play her. you can just look at the numerous posts and threads regarding that issue.

HailMary wrote:

So, you haven't seen the "ugh, D3 just wants us all to buy overpriced health packs because greeeeed" ranting in multiple forum threads lately?

yes, but like most people i already spend enough on hp for shields/roster slots and i refuse to buy health packs, so for players like myself health packs are only a way to limit the amount of playtime and a source of frustration, nothing more. the game already has enough money sinks that health packs shouldn't be one of them. that's when the game stops being fun is when you have to pay real money to continually keep your heroes topped up.

HailMary wrote:

Not worrying about active healing is already possible. Assuming that you mean "extremely liberating" when you say "extreme" all by its lonesome, I don't see how having the AI wipe you more often and more intelligently translates into "extreme amounts of freedom." If you make defensive AI more human, then you change the defensive meta to include more finesse-centric high-tier characters like CMags and GSBW, and you'd likely make OBW even more powerful since the AI will now (since it's not stupid anymore) try to get Recon even faster. The AI could even manage its own color tanking and hide OBW behind its tank(s), which makes OBW even deadlier.

not worrying about active healing is only possible for those with a very decked roster, and usually requires semi-specific team comp. you are thinking only as a high-tier player which is not the majority of players. for the average player, they do not quality as this type of player, most of them not even close. when i said "extreme amounts of freedom" it had nothing to do with the difficulty level of the AI, but the freedom to use any team comp desired with prolonged play, something that just isn't possible in the current system. and again, i didn't go in the particulars of how the AI would change, whether defensive or offensive. i'd assume the devs would make the AI use their abilities better and maybe match 5 and 6 matches more intelligently, but this is not an area i know much about.

HailMary wrote:

Translation: "STFU & GTFO." Classy.

yeah that was pretty much the idea. but it was because you started being a **** for no reason and didn't contribute any solutions, just carried on as if mine was wrong. anyways, it was uncalled for. sorry.


edits: typos. derp.

Unknown

TLDR version for those just joining us

atlasspeaks: I got an awesome idea!
HailMary: Your idea sucks
atlasspeaks: My idea is awesome and you are a ****. What is your brilliant idea?
HailMary: I don't have anything to propose and your idea still sucks
atlasspeaks: ****, shut up.

Linkster79

At the risk of getting this back on topic.

An organised spend of money is a terrible idea. D3P use metrics for everything and if they see money flooding in then all that means is that us the customers are happy with everything that is happening and it is all "working as intended".

Unknown

Linkster79 wrote:

At the risk of getting this back on topic.

An organised spend of money is a terrible idea. D3P use metrics for everything and if they see money flooding in then all that means is that us the customers are happy with everything that is happening and it is all "working as intended".

Yeah, like how they decided that when they nerfed guaranteed 3-stars in 10-packs and courageous/diabolical tokens, it meant that customers "liked"spending more on those. More likely, people felt **** because they saw 3-stars advertised and figured they must've just gotten unlucky the first time so tried again. A really good analogy is a casino. People love to win, but casinos make more money if they lose. So basically Demiurge are saying "we lowered the payout of slot machines and people seem to like this new format more because they're spending more money"). Their analysis is pretty disgusting to me. Even a casino typically wouldn't characterize people as "enjoying" the act of losing at slot machines.

Now the difference is that casinos are reliant on people losing at slots, whereas MPQ is a digital game so Demiurge have a choice how much they want to try and nickel and dime us / try and force us to grind for progress. They can choose whether to try and rip us off, or choose whether they'd prefer lower prices / higher token payouts and embrace volume over premium. They can also choose whether or not to provide actual customer service. Maybe that's our fault though. They run the game like a casino, so it's no surprise they don't ever want to help you out if the machine eats your time / money.

Unknown

atlasspeaks wrote:

so basically, if you don't have anything productive to add and insist on being a ****, then you might want to use your energies elsewhere.

As far as I can tell, he's (at least I think HM's a he) responded to your ideas (and mine) pretty civilly. Perhaps if you went for a post without insulting his intelligence or insinuating that you're absolutely right, and he's absolutely wrong, he'd be more friendly to you. I'm in the camp who'd prefer to see an overhaul to get rid of health packs, but I'm not going to agree with the way that you express your ideas. It's okay to be frustrated with Demiurge - they're certainly giving us plenty of reasons to, but if you're unwilling to consider his points politely, why are you surprised when he's a bit sharp with you? And on a final note, maybe you're taking the exchange of ideas a bit too personally. Disagreements are fine, even strong ones, but it's important to remember that you should be disagreeing on the merits of ideas, and not resorting to personal attacks because someone disagrees with you.

Unknown

Have you heard of the psychological phenomenon of "extinction behaviour"?

Long story short, after a response regime is put in place (in this case, players knowing that *3 are guaranteed from a 10-pack), and that response is changed or eliminated (in this case, an abrupt, almost unadvertised change of *3 drop rate to 6%), the rate of response (in this case, the purchase of 10-pack cover packages) WILL INCREASE initially, until the response is stabilized to background noise.

I hope D3 enjoys their background noise in the near future (in this case, NOBODY WASTING THEIR TIME OR MONEY ON 10-PACKS).

firethorne

So, server performance has been mediocre, you get less bang for your buck (10 pack 3 star chance reduced from 100% to 15%), and you think this deserves reward? Hmm....

Counter idea, rather than spending 20 bucks on what will get enough iso to level a single character from level 6 to level 31, I buy a complete brand new game like Transistor for the same amount.

Seriously, spending $50 won't get you enough resources to fully max a new ONE STAR character! Why on earth would I do anything that might encourage such ridiculous price gouging to spread.