Compensation for Chasm nerf discussion

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    @SnowcaTT this just seems like a restatement of the "digital pump-and-dump scheme" theory -- developers release an overpowered character on purpose to get players to spend money, then nerf the character when sales die off, so that players will have to spend to chase after a new overpowered character.

    First, you're saying that the developers are in fact in control, to the point where they're fiendishly psychologically manipulating players into spending money, so I'm not sure why you disagreed with that specific point.

    Second, I don't agree that this is what they're doing, but let's posit that it's true. The developers purposely create overpowered characters to drive sales, then purposely nerf them to take that value from players. Assuming that is the plan...

    How on earth is anyone still dumb enough to fall for this scheme?

    The first time it happened (Ragnarok), I agree that players couldn't have known/couldn't even have anticipated that this might happen. We're now at, what, the 10th time? If you were dumb enough to spend a ton of money on Chasm, ignoring the entire history of this metagame, then regardless of the developers' evil, money-grubbing intentions, you absolutely deserve what you get.

    It's Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. The first few times, it's Lucy's fault. But the 5th time? The 10th time? That's on you.

  • Yepyep
    Yepyep Posts: 954 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2023

    I'm not really sure where to put it, so I'll put it here: I don't think Chasm is overpowered. This week in PvP is an example of that -- Hit Monkey and Kang laugh at Chasm if they notice him at all. That is also true for many other characters when they are boosted. In other weeks, Chasm and iHulk are a good general-use team, just like Switch and Colossus still are. For sure, Chasm isn't a threat without the right partner, and with that partner there are multiple specific counters.

    At this point, Chasm doesn't need a nerf as his skillset had been embedded in a power matrix designed to accommodate them. Sure he's strong, but not any more so than others in the top tier of 5*s.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    Chasm isn't overpowered this week. In 3 weeks when the boosted 5* list is Wasp, Hela, Ultron, and Sersi, he'll be overpowered again.

  • Yepyep
    Yepyep Posts: 954 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2023

    I think my point is still good. He's meta, but requires a partner to be superstrong. Chasm is pretty much a cupcake without iHulk.

    So, what we're actually discussing is Hulkasm. (And for that matter, why isn't it iHulk who is OP? It's truly not fun facing down a strong Hulkoye team...) You can always use Kang or HM's specialized powers to take out Chasm, boosted or not. Riri-mThor can put them away. And there's always the specialized art of the Hulkasm mirror (which I have not mastered but it's been used against me plenty).

    Obviously, unless you're a 550 you won't be looking to take on Hulkasm during a PvP hop, but while climbing Hulkasm is doable if they're the only points out there. I'd prefer to skip them, obviously, but that's true for Switch-Colossus, too. Skilled players with deep rosters can handle the odd Hulkasm team.

    As for this week, not only is a Hulkasm team not overpowered, it is a neon billboard screeching "HIT ME." That was part of my point: like almost all other (decent) 5s out there, some weeks are great, some are average, and some are awful due to that week's boosts. This week, Hulkasm is pathetically underpowered. In the week you mention with Wasp, Hela, Ultron, and Sersi boosted, three of whom are the dregs of the 5 tier, Hulkasm will be above average but not more so than mThor-SC -- either team can take out those boosted toons with little difficulty (though, obviously, Hulkasm brings good defense and instills fear that mThor-SC do not). But they're only really OP when Chasm is boosted.

    Edited to say: I'm not sure how that random italicization got in there. Maybe some inadvertent markdown thing I typed. Since I don't know much markdown...

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    I agree that they should (also) nerf Hulk. Unlimited resurrection is too good, and frankly it's surprising that it took till now for a character to exploit it.

    As for the rest: I mean, yeah, all 5* have "good" and "bad" weeks, I guess, depending on the boost list. Chasm having only one "bad" week out of 52 (and I'm still seeing him everywhere this week anyway) is just more evidence that he's too good. How many bad weeks does everyone else have? Has Ultron ever had a good week?

  • Jimsta_rooney
    Jimsta_rooney Posts: 167 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that they should (also) nerf Hulk. Unlimited resurrection is too good, and frankly it's surprising that it took till now for a character to exploit it.

    As for the rest: I mean, yeah, all 5* have "good" and "bad" weeks, I guess, depending on the boost list. Chasm having only one "bad" week out of 52 (and I'm still seeing him everywhere this week anyway) is just more evidence that he's too good. How many bad weeks does everyone else have? Has Ultron ever had a good week?

    Ultron/brb boosted would be a good week

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    How I would say this... Chasm is OP. Dot.
    Collective starting stun disables many, many skills of a lot of characters and also favores the next point: massive health pack usage facing chasm, be it with ihulk or not, as he starts with all his massive match damage without having to do nothing, only waiting a match 5 for to severely cripple all your team health bar .
    Then you can mirror match him, that way health pack risk is decreased.
    Doing that you get 2 consequences: killing diversity, and proving that he is actually OP.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think if I am going to get some real compensation and not just a swap of other pictures of superheroes then I will be OK with some beer and ice cream. Not Bud Lite though, I said beer...

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker

    Do we have any timeline for the chasm rework/buff/missednerfopportunity ? or are they putting that on hold indefinitely as chasm stuns the devs each time they try a change ?

  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,487 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    How on earth is anyone still dumb enough to fall for this scheme?

    It's worked for them for ten years. :D

    I mean, here are all these folks complaining about overpowered characters and possible nerfs. Were this the original threads I'd dredge up the 3* Sentry/Hood thread, or Mags/Spidey. Has any specific-topic thread ever gotten more pages than the MBW-true healing one?

    Sunk cost / habit-addiction is a hell of a thing.

  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,487 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    Chasm isn't overpowered this week. In 3 weeks when the boosted 5* list is Wasp, Hela, Ultron, and Sersi, he'll be overpowered again.

    So what your true complaint is that godboost makes things unfair? Completely agree, let's get rid of +100 level boosts, which creates a "Play only the characters we tell you to play this week!" environment.

    The other complaint I see there is some characters are horribly underpowered. Completely agree, as I've said for years "nerf everything until wasp is good, and then nerf wasp!". Or I guess let's buff all the bad stuff until there's a bit more of a balance, which there never has been and never will be.

    The other complaint I see there is "Meta characters are meta". Because you know what my Chasm will get hit with on that godboost week? SW/Col and Kang/Whatever and Jane/Whatever and....you know, those other meta teams. I've never seen one meta that stops everything else dead, and Chasm has been no different.

    Is it frustrating to see the same few teams all the time? I suppose that's why godboost was invented, but it just creates a bigger problem of needing -all- the meta characters rather than a few. I still think we saw a higher % Hulkoye being used in those days compared to Chasm now: and that's just time-distance from meta characters.

    It's been a year since Chasm release, and I'm seeing less and less as each season passes. Another year from now, even without a giant meta shift, we'll be down further - as more Chasmers retire and more new players get the new hotness: at which time the cycle will repeat.

    See you in 2025 when we're all complaining about a needed 6* Aunt May nerf!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    Uhm...of course Aunt May is going to need a nerf.

    Without superpowers, she can do this:

    But she also has this:

    And her final form is this:

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker

    golden oldie as next 2* plz

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    Back on topic, I do think the Chasm nerf discussion is pretty awful and compensation for it would be great because free stuffs, but it isn't the worst discussion we've ever had judging by the participation levels.

    Also nerf Chasm a little - but only a little; maybe just letting first turn effects happen on the first non-stun turn would be enough.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    @SnowcaTT said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    How on earth is anyone still dumb enough to fall for this scheme?

    It's worked for them for ten years. :D

    I mean, here are all these folks complaining about overpowered characters and possible nerfs. Were this the original threads I'd dredge up the 3* Sentry/Hood thread, or Mags/Spidey. Has any specific-topic thread ever gotten more pages than the MBW-true healing one?

    Sunk cost / habit-addiction is a hell of a thing.

    Respectfully, it's a phone game. It's not heroin. Players can and do stop playing MPQ all the time, without facing fatal withdrawal symptoms.

    If someone is addicted to a phone game, such that playing it is no longer fun, or they feel taken advantage of, they can quite easily just stop playing that particular phone game.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    @SnowcaTT As to the 5* boost, I think your perspective on this is 180° from mine (and many others on the forum), and I wish there was more of it around here.

    I think you're completely wrong about it though. Every competitive game has a metagame, and any game that allows multiple strategies has one or more "best" strategies at any given time. The job of the game designer is to make sure there are as many viable competitive strategies as possible -- that's what balance is.

    When there is one "best" strategy, and it's obviously, significantly better than any other one (in the case of MPQ this is a team), the metagame is BORING. You either use that strategy or you lose. Every single game designer, of every competitive game in the history of games, would take action to fix that situation.

    The boosts are a band-aid. They don't fix the fact that 90% of the 5* are so much worse than the "meta" characters that they're totally unusable in normal circumstances. They do mitigate that somewhat, though. What the boosts do is allow them to save the effort of buffing EVERYONE, to get to something approaching balance.

    Without the boosts, even reasonably strong characters like Hit Monkey or Gargantos would see zero use ever, and that's a huge problem in a game that financially incentivizes collecting every character.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    EB - I agree that the metagame is boring but I disagree about what it is - playing certain powerful teams is still the game, the metagame is structuring your playing time, organising your alliance, and selecting your slices so that playing those teams maximises your placement & rewards.

    All that stuff can FRO, frankly. A few overpowered teams is way less ghastly.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't understand what the problem with boosts is. The 4* had them for the longest time when it was the main tier so why not the 5* tier? It took Demiurge a lifetime to even do anything with 5* apart from collect cash - no PvP or anywhere to effectively use them or try them out. It was like they were ashamed that 5* characters existed for so long!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,986 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DrClever said:
    EB - I agree that the metagame is boring but I disagree about what it is - playing certain powerful teams is still the game, the metagame is structuring your playing time, organising your alliance, and selecting your slices so that playing those teams maximises your placement & rewards.

    All that stuff can FRO, frankly. A few overpowered teams is way less ghastly.

    You make a good point about the nature of the metagame. All the stuff you mention is also the metagame, plus more -- all the PvP coordination stuff, plus stuff that nobody actually does anymore, like targeted dumping, enforcing, and sniping for placement.

    But the bar to participate in any of that stuff is "you must have these specific few characters, at a reasonably high level," and that's not good, especially when those characters are older or difficult to get.

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