Discussion on player experience facing Chasm

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  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    Based on feedbacks from Chasm/iHulk users, they are not breezing with ease. As a matter of fact, they seems miserable using them but they chose to use them because they provide great defensive value.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    Nerf: (in a video game) to reconfigure (an existing character or weapon), making it less powerful.
    Yes, nobody has touched any character .
    But if in pvp chasm is played on a 70% (depending if the character godboosted is better option or can hinder chasm), then those characters are nerfed for pvp.
    Or have you seen many kittys, BRB and polaris since 5 months ago? SC ruling like before? What about new character wong?
    If those characters suddenly can't step into pvp, aren't they nerfed? Because of a single one character?
    Aren't they effectively less powerful or not?
    They aren't countered: just they simply can't use ine of the abilities which made them great.
    Whit which right a new character just eliminates their abilities and totally for free?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    Keep abusing the word "nerf". I'm using an objective definition of the word "nerf", while your definition is filled with hatred for Chasm.

    If you don't know how to use those boosted 5* for the past 2-3 months to deal with Chasm, it's a skill issue.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No, it's not a skill issue, and you yourself aknowleged it with that very sentence.
    A boosted 5* has 110 levels higher. If anyone has any trouble fighting a 450 chasm with a boosted character level 560, chances are that this character is broken.
    And when there are 6 months of chasm prevalence and the characters mentioned can't climb on pvp without devs doing something for them, for me it's a nerf in all the letters, but of course you are free to disagree.

  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    What about changing Chasm's black ability to generate less Abyss tiles as easily. I was thinking along the lines that he only generate 1 Abyss tile per turn when he only makes a black match. An Abyss tile can only be placed on a black tile as well. Severely limiting his Abyss tiles may make his revive much less effective. In addition, it will slow down his AP drain. You can also counter him by matching black first in this scenario. Thoughts?

    The issue with the revive meta with Chasm is that it is too good of a defensive team that slows matches down a lot, guarantees you will take significant damage and it keeps you from using AP....which is what the game is about. If it was just one of these issues, so be it, but the combination is what is killer. I mean I have this team, but it is no fun to play, and no fun to play against so I rarely use it.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Bad Just because someone has trouble beating meta with boosted doesn't mean that meta team is broken. It simply means it's a skill/experience/familiarity with boosted 5* synergy or lack of roster issue. I'm happy to see more Chasm/iHulk in the current boost week. Once again, this is my mmr in pvps and please tell me how many unique Chasm/iHulk teams you see flooding my mmr.

    https://streamable.com/g002ww
    And look, 1200 points in 18 wins.

    And these are two videos of boosted 5* beating Chasm/iHulk with ease.

    https://streamable.com/x4o1nm

    https://streamable.com/rddbaz

    Just imagine this, if there were more players like me, and less players like you, those players fielding Chasm/iHulk will think twice about doing so. For months, they have been floating with ease because not many players dare to touch them. And imagine you are one of them. Instead of waking up to defensive wins everyday, you are pummeled with ~200 points loss everyday.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    And that is your concept of using boosted 5*s? JJ. Yeah, JJ can kill them both with a trap.
    But without JJ you are dealing with them simply with match damage like usually it's done, and taking your fair share of damage.
    And about your MMR, be careful to never step outside of it! And I'm sure you are very careful indeed :D .

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I've posted multiple videos of other pick-2 counter teams against Chasm/iHulk and you always have some reasons why they don't work. It just prove that you are not interested in any counter team but Chasm nerf. I guess it's difficult to admit that it's a skill issue for you. :p

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    I've posted multiple videos of other pick-2 counter teams against Chasm/iHulk and you always have some reasons why they don't work. It just prove that you are not interested in any counter team but Chasm nerf. I guess it's difficult to admit that it's a skill issue for you. :p

    Where do you find these videos? I’ve given up on fighting Chasm. iHulk is a drag, but Chasm every time I think I’ve got a decent enough team, I’m lucky to win 10% of the time.

    The AP drain alone makes it so any ability requiring more than 3AP might as well not exist, and 3AP requires getting lucky. The board is a cruel mistress, but I recently got stomped by a Chasm because my boosted Abigail & StarLord couldn’t get even get 6 AP for her blue. His AP drain is CRAZY! At least against Hood he’s squishy and you can usually slowly collect AP and outpace the drain. With Chasm he’s regularly draining more AP than you can generate on a standard match.

    Chasm’s current set of abilities does Nerf the vast majority of the game by nullifying any AP based abilities that require more than a single match worth of AP. Against Chasm by himself that’s one thing; but then paired with a variety of other characters who have strong passives (Like Mighty Thor) even a boosted team can melt before his revive mechanic comes into play.

    The Best Counter against Chasm is Chasm (as unfun as that matchup is to play). The only other consistent strategy is to skip.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Those videos were mine. If you want tips beating them in pick-2 pvps or in shield sim, let me know how your roster look like.

    For a start, I think I've posted these videos in the past 6 months
    mThor/Iceman
    mThor/Riri
    Colossus/Wanda
    Wanda/Silver Surfer
    Wanda/Deathlok
    Deathlok/Hit-Monkey
    Wanda/Hit-Monkey
    JJ/Wanda

    There's likely more but I can't remember them

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    L> @Warbringa said:

    What about changing Chasm's black ability to generate less Abyss tiles as easily. I was thinking along the lines that he only generate 1 Abyss tile per turn when he only makes a black match. An Abyss tile can only be placed on a black tile as well. Severely limiting his Abyss tiles may make his revive much less effective. In addition, it will slow down his AP drain. You can also counter him by matching black first in this scenario. Thoughts?

    The issue with the revive meta with Chasm is that it is too good of a defensive team that slows matches down a lot, guarantees you will take significant damage and it keeps you from using AP....which is what the game is about. If it was just one of these issues, so be it, but the combination is what is killer. I mean I have this team, but it is no fun to play, and no fun to play against so I rarely use it.

    I like the idea of limiting his Abyss tiles, but this feels like a step too far.

    What if he could only generate Abyss tiles from a single match per turn? Doesn’t matter which color, first match per turn generates Abyss tile(s). Then it would take a minimum of 3 turns before his AP drain reaches the insane rates it can currently, and that’s assuming the tiles don’t get matched away and all three land on the one color the opponent needs.

    Heck, I’m not even opposed to a higher limit than 1 match, but it should cap out at some point. Perhaps with some playtesting a good fair number can be established.

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    Those videos were mine. If you want tips beating them in pick-2 pvps or in shield sim, let me know how your roster look like.

    For a start, I think I've posted these videos in the past 6 months
    mThor/Iceman
    mThor/Riri
    Colossus/Wanda
    Wanda/Silver Surfer
    Wanda/Deathlok
    Deathlok/Hit-Monkey
    Wanda/Hit-Monkey
    JJ/Wanda

    There's likely more but I can't remember them

    I guess the Wanda/Deathlok as that’s the only combination I have champed (I’m assuming all of these require champed characters).

    I’ve got Kitty(460), Goblin(458), Archangel(457), DrStrange(456), Okoye(456), BRB(455), Thanos(455), B Bolt(454), Shang-Chi(454), Abigail Brand(453), Carnage(453), Hawkeye(453), iHulk(453), Black Widow(452), Gambit(452), Loki(452), She-Hulk(452), Spider-Parker(452), Star-Lord(452), OML(452), Black Panther(451), Cable(451), Dr Ock(451), Khamala(451), Spider-Black(451), IM(450), ScarletWitch(450), BannerHulk(450), Wasp(450), and nearly every 4* Champed except M’Baku & Colleen Wing.

    But are these just example videos of how it is possible to win, or are these actual strategies? You posted a couple videos above that you beat Chasm teams with, but they seem more like you got lucky (especially with that random match-5 cascade from off screen that you got turn like 3 or so.) Out of 100 matches, it’s certainly possible to get lucky and beat Chasm; but I’m looking for a consistent strategy.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I've been beating Chasm/iHulk with boosted 5* for the last couple of months. Back then, Wanda/JJ was boosted a pair, I think. The strategy for JJ is simple: match her trap tile in such a way that her match damage will down the first one, and the trap to down the other one. As for finding her trap tiles, since Chasm would be flooding the board with his web/Abyss tiles, it's even easier to find her trap because it's only placed on three colours: red/blue/black.

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    I've been beating Chasm/iHulk with boosted 5* for the last couple of months. Back then, Wanda/JJ was boosted a pair, I think. The strategy for JJ is simple: match her trap tile in such a way that her match damage will down the first one, and the trap to down the other one. As for finding her trap tiles, since Chasm would be flooding the board with his web/Abyss tiles, it's even easier to find her trap because it's only placed on three colours: red/blue/black.

    So without JJ the strat is Skip or Pray? And while I’ve gotten lucky with boosted Teams before, I’d hardly call using boosted characters to beat Chasm a justification that Chasm doesn’t need a nerf.

    I’m still curious what the strat is with Wanda & Deathlok you mentioned. Granted my Wanda is only 450, but my experience throwing the two of them to the wolves of Chasm last night was less than encouraging.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Move Chasm to the front, collect at least 9 blue aps before you down him. After he revives, fire Wanda's blue on him to reduce all his power levels to 1. Then, move him to the front again and down him again.

    Deathlok is there to act as an ap battery for you to ensure that your blue aps collected will never be reduced. You could even do Deathlok + Hit-Monkey/Wong if you've them in the future. etc.

    If you don't mind using +4 blue ap boosts, you can even do BRB/Polaris. Match blue and fire BRB's blue. Let Chasm/iHulk triggers protect tile creation. Match protect tile, then stun Chasm if necessary. If you don't like using this, use Deathlok as a battery and as a counter against Chasm ap drain.

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The problem I ran into was the 1 blue Ap Deathlok was generating with his passive never got me enough AP to cast before SW melted, and that was with using her Purple to try to get more Blue on the board.

    I’ve used BRB & Polaris before, but unless I can make multiple matches of the Protect tiles myself to flood the board, Chasm’s AP drain simply is too much to overcome and I never get enough AP to ever cast anything. Even if you manage to get 11 AP, the 6 AP drain before your next move is utterly brutal and cripples AP based abilities.

    In general I’m not opposed to using my boosts (I noticed long ago that hoarding them never gets me any special bonus, I just run out of room to collect more); against Chasm the AP boosts feel pretty useless. Before turn 1 he stuns me, if I’m lucky he only makes one match, but more likely he gets at least a match 2 or worse yet a cascade; at which point for the first turn I can actually do anything he’s already drained 1-3 AP, effectively making that +4 I started with only a +1 worst case or a +3 best case. Make a match, and there goes another 3-6 AP before I can use any of it. The Math just doesn’t add up, and it’s made worse by his Abyss tiles which nullify what little AP is gained from matches.

    If you’re lucky and the tiles fall in a favorable position, you might get a move off; but I’ve faced Chasm too many times and never had enough AP to cast anything till long after the person who could cast it is dead.

    It’s been how many months now that we’ve been stuck in this state? Clearly the developers are very proud of their little monster and have a strong desire to not nerf him while attempting to use new characters as a bandaid without breaking the Meta further. Perhaps the next release will be the magic one that fixes this, but unless they too are functioning largely on passive abilities unaffected by AP drain I’m skeptical.

    A nerf to his ability to generate Abyss tiles (be it a cap to the maximum on the board at once, or limit how many per turn can be generated) seems like the most logical solution to this problem without totally breaking the ideas behind him.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hound always posts lucky videos where defeating the chahulk team is so easy and fast, and that certainly supports his theory that he is The Chosen One and the rest of us are noob players complaining for everything.

    And certainly in his fantasy world, and in his carefully not too high leveled MMR that could be true.
    Sadly, the harsh reality is what you won't see on his videos: 2 Ihulk AoE plus chasm passive and easy cascades will kill the 3* character and possibly half health your next character, and then congratulations you can play a hard game for collecting AP, only that now you are half dead.
    So it's never a skill issue rather than a healthpack kamikaze policy what makes this absolutely broken duo simply the best team.
    And chasm deserving a nerf.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    I've posted videos of myself beating iHulk/Chasm multiple times and hitting 1200 in 18-22 wins multiple times. I also have videos of myself beating 550 Chasm. If you need help polishing skill, the first thing you need to do is to admit that you're not as skillful when dealing with Chasml/iHulk. Clearly, you have a lot of excuses about why every team recommended is not working, when the problem lies in you. :|

  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    I've posted videos of myself beating iHulk/Chasm multiple times and hitting 1200 in 18-22 wins multiple times. I also have videos of myself beating 550 Chasm. If you need help polishing skill, the first thing you need to do is to admit that you're not as skillful when dealing with Chasml/iHulk. Clearly, you have a lot of excuses about why every team recommended is not working, when the problem lies in you. :|

    Ok, so a random video doesn’t actually provide a strategy. It shows how things went well one time in a game that can be very RNG based. A cascade from off-screen into a match 5 is NOT skill. It’s luck.

    A strategy is something like you said earlier with JJ how her passive traps don’t get overwritten by Chasm’s Abyss tiles, making them easier to locate. Not viable for me as my JJ isn’t in a position to do that.

    You also mentioned using Deathlok and SW, but as I pointed out that strategy is limited and doesn’t seem to work against 5 black Chasm who’s AP drain outpaces Deathlok’s gains significantly. In practice it’s been just been free points for my opponents.

    I’ve previously listed off my champed 5*’s if you’d like to help me theory craft some viable strategies; but just saying “you’re not as skillful” isn’t a strategy. It’s not like there is some pixel perfect trick to making matches. There are only so many matches on the board at any given time. If you’re lucky one of those colors are viable to your strategy based on you and your opponent.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    I was talking about Bad, not you. I"ll make some videos using what you have. Last week boost list was filled with Colossus/Wanda in the wild, so it's difficult to find Chasm/iHulk.

    Also, those videos are not one-off lucky cascade into a win. My idea was to show how it is typically played. Personally, I find the idea of posting video of the same team against the same opponents redundant. Next time, I'll also input some general step by step guide, if possible.

    Edit: I can't see any Chasm/iHulk in SW pvp at all. I see a lot of those various boosted 5*. It's like they disappeared from the face of earth, for my mmr.

    In the meantime, do you want counter-teams in pick-3 shield sim or do you have no problem there? I can easily find Chasm/iHulk/She-Hulk there to make videos.