***** Riri Williams (Ironheart 3.0) *****

Warbringa

@Tony_Foot said:

@Warbringa said:
She may be a game balance problem with Dr. Thor. I just played my first PvP match against a Polaris, Dr. Thor and a very undercovered Riri and she just stunlocked my team to death after about 3 turns. I only got to play one or two matches after that and she resumed stun locking me to death. Just not fun at all and a major problem on the lines of Bishop since she has really good health. Not being able to play the game is not good, we went through this with Bishop. She is worse than Bishop though because she is a 5* with more health and you can't just mirror match her, you also would need your own Dr. Thor and hope you get rolling before the other team, otherwise you will just be stun locked too.

I disagree, you don’t need your own Dr Thor. I use half thor and stunned them to death with a constant supply of green. You can even stun them on turn one by taking in +2 ap and +2 green and black.

But you do need to use Riri and race to hope you can stunlock faster, which is back to the old Bishop problem, not what the game is supposed to be.

HoundofShadow

@Warbringa I saw your quoted post, and not the actual post you made. That explains why I didn't see your mentioning of 560 teams.

Anyway, you can use Chasm to stun them to slow them down, or use characters who can increase their ap costs. There are other teams to deal with them. As for character immune to stun, there are a few: Moonknight, Silver Surfer, Apocalypse, Hydra Stomper(+Peggy Carter) and probably others.

Theoretically speaking, Black Panther would be good in stunlock: it's 12k passive damage each time you returns from being stunned. You can throw in Emma Frost to turn it into 20k damage instead. Also, Riri goes airborne each time she fires her green. So, someone who are immune to stun or someone who returns from being airborne at the right timing will be able to do something magical. For example, 5 Kamala Khan who can clear stun for allies and goes airborne 1-2 turns.

Warbringa

@HoundofShadow said:
@Warbringa I saw your quoted post, and not the actual post you made. That explains why I didn't see your mentioning of 560 teams.

Anyway, you can use Chasm to stun them to slow them down, or use characters who can increase their ap costs. There are other teams to deal with them. As for character immune to stun, there are a few: Moonknight, Silver Surfer, Apocalypse, Hydra Stomper(+Peggy Carter) and probably others.

Theoretically speaking, Black Panther would be good in stunlock: it's 12k passive damage each time you returns from being stunned. You can throw in Emma Frost to turn it into 20k damage instead. Also, Riri goes airborne each time she fires her green. So, someone who are immune to stun or someone who returns from being airborne at the right timing will be able to do something magical. For example, 5 Kamala Khan who can clear stun for allies and goes airborne 1-2 turns.

@HoundofShadow I get that there are individual characters like you mentioned above that help somewhat mitigate her stunlock but when Riri is paired with Mighty Thor, those characters cannot hope to out damage that combo imo. I may be wrong but once we start seeing fully covered Riri 3.0, I think there may be some balance issues. I do hope I am wrong. I do like the character and her build.

HoundofShadow

Shang Chi, Colossus + America Chave, etc should be able to put out decent damage. They love charged tiles. If not, bring some character with green power and focus on green. For example, She-Hulk might work (after she revives) and anyone who returns from airborne (regardless of how it is achieved) takes damage = up to 10% of their max hp. However, this is something also theoretical and I don't know how the order of operation would be like. I assume She-Hulk revives while her teammate is stunned and next turn Riri takes 8.1k damage.

Vulture+iHulk could work too. Vulture to feed red and iHulk to focus on black. Use iHulk's red to hammer them into oblivion.
Dr Thor/Iceman will definitely work to stun lock Riri or Dr Thor. I used this team with great success against iHulk/Chasm.

Sersi just came to my mind. If stun is an issue, use her purple to reduce green and pair her with Dr Thor. Sersi/Dr Thor can go winfinite even in a pick-2. I've tried and tested a few times already. While Sersi's will accumulate green slower, but you will still accumulate them. Dr Thor + Sersi will create even more cascades that give you winfinite.

acescracked

@Warbringa said:

@HoundofShadow said:
@Warbringa I saw your quoted post, and not the actual post you made. That explains why I didn't see your mentioning of 560 teams.

Anyway, you can use Chasm to stun them to slow them down, or use characters who can increase their ap costs. There are other teams to deal with them. As for character immune to stun, there are a few: Moonknight, Silver Surfer, Apocalypse, Hydra Stomper(+Peggy Carter) and probably others.

Theoretically speaking, Black Panther would be good in stunlock: it's 12k passive damage each time you returns from being stunned. You can throw in Emma Frost to turn it into 20k damage instead. Also, Riri goes airborne each time she fires her green. So, someone who are immune to stun or someone who returns from being airborne at the right timing will be able to do something magical. For example, 5 Kamala Khan who can clear stun for allies and goes airborne 1-2 turns.

@HoundofShadow I get that there are individual characters like you mentioned above that help somewhat mitigate her stunlock but when Riri is paired with Mighty Thor, those characters cannot hope to out damage that combo imo. I may be wrong but once we start seeing fully covered Riri 3.0, I think there may be some balance issues. I do hope I am wrong. I do like the character and her build.

Yes!! Take the heat off my current favorite ihulk/chasm team.

No more nerf chasm threads, more nerf riri threads!

Sekilicious

@acescracked said:
Yes!! Take the heat off my current favorite ihulk/chasm team.

No more nerf chasm threads, more nerf riri threads!

I do wonder if this is the first time if we had duelling nerf threads on the forum. Or when the last time someone asked for a nerf in the introduction thread. This might be a first. I do remember when every introduction thread turned into ‘why do they release DOA characters’. This is a refreshing change from that.

HoundofShadow

I think Gambit and Bishop already had players asking for their nerfs in their introductions.

Anyway, we need to a wait one or two more months for players to break their hoards.

DAZ0273

They are not going to keep giving us free covers of new characters if we moan this much...

HoundofShadow

Players at reddit will balance this out. There's a couple of appreciation threads for dev in the last few weeks or so and the dev replied there to thank them.

dianetics

@Sekilicious said:
I do wonder if this is the first time if we had duelling nerf threads on the forum. Or when the last time someone asked for a nerf in the introduction thread. This might be a first. I do remember when every introduction thread turned into ‘why do they release DOA characters’. This is a refreshing change from that.

I mentioned nerfing Ikaris airborne match damage in his introduction thread. I still think it’s too high.
Never seen two characters where discussions for nerfs were happening at the same time though.

DeNappa

I do kinda agree though that the stunlock potential for Riri is too high. The only penalty for overcharging her suit is that you just can't use her powers for a few turns based on a countdown tile. Given how easy it is to get rid of a countdown tile it's hardly a handicap at all. MThor is by far the easiest with the charged tile synergy, but there are plenty of other options for targeted tile destruction powers too.

killahKlown

Once again, its not about a character being OP at launch. Riri alone isn't anything special, and she has that built in overcharge thing thats supposed to limit her cheap abilities. The problem is who she gets paired with. Mighty Thor enhances the hell out of riri. And vice versa.

Same with Chasm, by himself he's nothing special, kinda boring actually. But paired with hulk he becomes a menace.

Really you have to use your brain when challenging either of these two teams. It's not difficult to beat either of them as long as you're playing smart. Can't autopilot against those teams, I think that's what is frustrating some people

HoundofShadow

Chasm is useless without iHulk and you can walk over this guy. Likewise, it's the same for Riri/Dr Thor. It's the same for iHulk and Okoye back then.

In the end, what players want to nerf is not characters, but synergies that require them to think a little harder.

Warbringa

@HoundofShadow said:
Chasm is useless without iHulk and you can walk over this guy. Likewise, it's the same for Riri/Dr Thor. It's the same for iHulk and Okoye back then.

In the end, what players want to nerf is not characters, but synergies that require them to think a little harder. It is a combo that the AI can easily use (without thinking hard btw).

No Hound, my issue is specifically with stunlock potentially be too easy with this combo as a defensive team.

I hope I am wrong but I believe MThor and Riri is going to be a class above the combos mentioned by other posters above. You can create teams to counter the other examples with several realistic options. As this game has shown before (Bishop, Gambit,...just to name a few) if a character is too efficient on defense, it really detracts from the game. Stunlock is the worst though since you just don't get to play and a mirror match may be the only way to win if this combo is too efficient. Time will tell once we see enough of her well covered to see if she is balanced well enough with that stun or if other options are viable to counter the combo of her and MThor. Let's face it, she is new territory with powers that are all 3 or 4 AP and a 5* character to boot.

HoundofShadow

There are already existing effective counters to Riri/Thor. Don't worry too much. It will only be complicated if you want the counters to be healthpack efficient , fast and good on defense.

killahKlown

@Warbringa said:

@HoundofShadow said:
Chasm is useless without iHulk and you can walk over this guy. Likewise, it's the same for Riri/Dr Thor. It's the same for iHulk and Okoye back then.

In the end, what players want to nerf is not characters, but synergies that require them to think a little harder. It is a combo that the AI can easily use (without thinking hard btw).

No Hound, my issue is specifically with stunlock potentially be too easy with this combo as a defensive team.

I hope I am wrong but I believe MThor and Riri is going to be a class above the combos mentioned by other posters above. You can create teams to counter the other examples with several realistic options. As this game has shown before (Bishop, Gambit,...just to name a few) if a character is too efficient on defense, it really detracts from the game. Stunlock is the worst though since you just don't get to play and a mirror match may be the only way to win if this combo is too efficient. Time will tell once we see enough of her well covered to see if she is balanced well enough with that stun or if other options are viable to counter the combo of her and MThor. Let's face it, she is new territory with powers that are all 3 or 4 AP and a 5* character to boot.

You give too much credit to the decision making of the AI

LavaManLee

Yeah, the big problem with Bishop was that he was AI proof. He did his thing on passives and the AI didn't have to think. With Riri and (to some extent) Chasm, the AI will not play "efficiently" the way a player will. Doesn't mean they aren't difficult but the AI may not play optimal the way a player knows how to play.

acescracked

@killahKlown said:
Once again, its not about a character being OP at launch. Riri alone isn't anything special, and she has that built in overcharge thing thats supposed to limit her cheap abilities. The problem is who she gets paired with. Mighty Thor enhances the hell out of riri. And vice versa.

Same with Chasm, by himself he's nothing special, kinda boring actually. But paired with hulk he becomes a menace.

Really you have to use your brain when challenging either of these two teams. It's not difficult to beat either of them as long as you're playing smart. Can't autopilot against those teams, I think that's what is frustrating some people

So this is a great point. Should characters be designed so every single player doesn't fail? Cater to the lowest common denominator?

I think there needs to be some sort of difficulty where not all players have success. It's good players have to be aware of ability builds, correct tu's to bring and board play.

PvE can be for autopilot brainless play. I like having a challenge or failure possibility. Boring otherwise.

Bad

When I played against chahulk team for the first time 3 months ago I already said it: this team is hard to beat.
A character countering chahulk should have been released 2 months ago. Now pvp only is about chahulk. You can say goodbye to diversity. And chasm hasn't left LL yet. This issue never happened before. Chasm is easy to beat? Against another chasm not. Set him 5 on health and there could be an infinite battle there. Against boosted chasm there were 3 battles that I quit after 10 minutes, fighting all my team vs a single chasm.
Now they released the cheesy riri combo. Nice. You all can expect a 80% ririthor and 20% chahulk, if ririthor is fast.
So say goodbye forever to the godboost.
Chahulk already did it.

Speed283

Do I spend CP now on Riri, or wait until she hits the LL store?