But they were all of them deceived? [Mox Lotus discussion]

jtwood
jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
edited May 2022 in MtGPQ General Discussion
Question about this card:
Why would anyone want to acquire any colored mox when this appears to replace all of them in any deck? What am I missing about this card that separates it from the colored mox?
I'm legitimately curious if I wasted gold chasing the colored mox when all I really needed to do was get this one.
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Comments

  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    @jtwood - Good question, because this mox lotus seems really good.
    Firstly, the permanent +2 to the mana bonus from the color-specific moxes makes it possible to benefit from matching that color elsewhere on the BF. This is very limited on the mox lotus since it is for one round only, and may even be in an off colour.

    Secondly, I suspect that quite often the mox lotus will loose the mana gained from your gem match.
    I’ll try to explain with this example (a method which I often use).
    Let us say I’m playing a Red/Blue PW and I have a red mox on the BF. 
    I reorder my hand, so I have a mono-blue (or colourless) at the top and further down I have the red card I want the mox to fill. Now when I perform my gem match, the mana gained from my match goes to the blue card (and possibly other non-red cards) while the red mox completely fills the red card. 
    This maximises the gain from the red mox, but is impossible to do with the mox lotus.

    I hope my example makes sense.

    Now it is possible that these benefits does not counter the versatility of the mox lotus, but I think it probably does.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    Tremayne said:
    I hope my example makes sense.
    It certainly does make sense. I had already played through that scenario before starting this thread.
     
    My question to everyone when contrasting that situation for Lotus vs colored Moxes is this: Is that difference worth the hundreds - or likely thousands - of crystals people spent to get the colored Moxes? 
  • Heartstone
    Heartstone Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
    My 2 cents: no.
    I was trying to get the blue and green moxes,  knowing that it would take ages ( not enough gold), but now I'll concentrate on the colorless one. If Tremayne's scenario ( which I often use) is really limitating, maybe I'll think about the other moxes again.
    BTW, I personally find the black lotus totally underwhelming. What do you  think about it?
  • ambrosio191
    ambrosio191 Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
    There is also the possibility they work together, giving you 2 free cards if you can trigger both on one match.  I often have some redundancy in my decks, so I could see myself using a colored mox and this one so I increase my chances of drawing one. 
    Ive been slowly working my way through the blue PMA cards, already doing black and red when they came out.  Ill still probably finish it off even when this releases.  The moxes arent the only cards in PMA, they just tend to be the most useful.
  • Janosik
    Janosik Posts: 580 Critical Contributor
    This problem has now been solved by making Mox Lotus cost 21 mana
  • ambrosio191
    ambrosio191 Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
    So now that the cards are in game it looks like their costs have gone up significantly.  Mox Lotus is now 21 mana.  At that cost I'll stick with the colored moxes most of the them.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Probably because it's 21 mana instead of the 5 mana as advertised
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    But 21 can’t be the final cost.
    like the mox opal can’t be 18
  • Janosik
    Janosik Posts: 580 Critical Contributor
    Tremayne said:
    But 21 can’t be the final cost.
    like the mox opal can’t be 18
    How do you mean 'can't be'?

    The facebook gallery has been altered today to reflect the increased cost of the new PMA cards:

    e.g.


  • Heartstone
    Heartstone Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
    Heartstone said:
    My 2 cents: no.
    I was trying to get the blue and green moxes,  knowing that it would take ages ( not enough gold), but now I'll concentrate on the colorless one. If Tremayne's scenario ( which I often use) is really limitating, maybe I'll think about the other moxes again.
    BTW, I personally find the black lotus totally underwhelming. What do you  think about it?

    Can I still change my answer? 😫
    Considering the cost of lotus mox, I'll get back to the normal ones. Green and blue, here I come!
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    @Janosik - I mean they are completely unbalanced. Just compare the text of any color mox. They cost 6 mana, so of course a card that does the same does not cost 3 times as much, even if the lotus mox has 4 shields.

    And I saw the changes to the gallery, but that is just compounding the error. So I’m calling out Oktagon and giving them a chance to gather their wits.
  • ambrosio191
    ambrosio191 Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
    Tremayne said:
    @Janosik - I mean they are completely unbalanced. Just compare the text of any color mox. They cost 6 mana, so of course a card that does the same does not cost 3 times as much, even if the lotus mox has 4 shields.

    And I saw the changes to the gallery, but that is just compounding the error. So I’m calling out Oktagon and giving them a chance to gather their wits.

    Looking at the text of any colored mox you could argue mox lotus at 21 doesnt cost enough.  Colored moxes only fill one color, mox lotus fills any card, colorless included, so it could easily be 30 mana, since it does the job of 5-6 other cards at 6 mana each.  Now, I know that's not how to cost things, but it's disingenuous to say mox lotus does the same thing as the colored moxes.  21 does seem steep, and I hope it's adjusted down, but nowhere near what the colored moxes cost.  12-16 feels more appropriate to me, closer to 16 than 12.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    Supports that give full mana to cards have historically cost close to 20ish mana. 

    Sunforger, Pyromancer's goggles, chaos wand, Thran's temporal gateway

    The mox cards were an exception. Those should've cost at least 10 mana from the start anyway.
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2022
    @ambrosio191 - I believe the cost of 21 is wrong, calling it disingenuous is a bit harsh (IMO). It is wrong because the card becomes irrelevant. You have other options, that simply are better. 

    The moxes mainly relies on the mana field mechanism, therein lies the main limiting factor of moxes. You can’t use the ability of any MF mox if there is no match in the mana field. However, even if there is a match sometimes the match is undesirable (off-colour, match-5 elsewhere or you need to get rid of a support to name a few reasons). So the coloured moxes have a +2 to mana gain, which means that the mox is still masterpiece worthy.

    The mox lotus does the same to any coloured card (as you argue) but as I have shown above with drawbacks (which is loss of mana from your match and lower/shorter mana gain period), So a cost of 21 seems extremely high, for a masterpiece (possibly not a mythic) particularly if you compare it to a support like “Fires of invention”, here you get two cards for free at the cost of 13 mana with the drawback that you can only cast two cards per round.

    After considering all of this I agree that a cost of 10 to 12 would be a fair mana cost, considering ML is a MP.
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    khurram said:
    Supports that give full mana to cards have historically cost close to 20ish mana. 

    Sunforger, Pyromancer's goggles, chaos wand, Thran's temporal gateway

    The mox cards were an exception. Those should've cost at least 10 mana from the start anyway.
    There is a significant benefit to the supports you list compared to the moxes. Which is the supports fetch a card first and then fills that card. The fetching has to cost something, just as the fact that the supports are mythic. Finally, we have power creep (which has been introduced with the MP moxes). 

    So I still argue the ML is too expensive, while I do soften my stance a bit on the mox opal. Speaking of MO I think that 10 to 14 would be more in line for that mox.
  • TomB
    TomB Posts: 269 Mover and Shaker
    I sure am glad I quit my coalition and stopped trying to keep up. This game sucks now
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    TomB said:
    I sure am glad I quit my coalition and stopped trying to keep up. This game sucks now
    Nice of you to stop by and let us know
  • ambrosio191
    ambrosio191 Posts: 315 Mover and Shaker
    Tremayne said:
    @ambrosio191 - I believe the cost of 21 is wrong, calling it disingenuous is a bit harsh (IMO). It is wrong because the card becomes irrelevant. You have other options, that simply are better. 

    The moxes mainly relies on the mana field mechanism, therein lies the main limiting factor of moxes. You can’t use the ability of any MF mox if there is no match in the mana field. However, even if there is a match sometimes the match is undesirable (off-colour, match-5 elsewhere or you need to get rid of a support to name a few reasons). So the coloured moxes have a +2 to mana gain, which means that the mox is still masterpiece worthy.

    The mox lotus does the same to any coloured card (as you argue) but as I have shown above with drawbacks (which is loss of mana from your match and lower/shorter mana gain period), So a cost of 21 seems extremely high, for a masterpiece (possibly not a mythic) particularly if you compare it to a support like “Fires of invention”, here you get two cards for free at the cost of 13 mana with the drawback that you can only cast two cards per round.

    After considering all of this I agree that a cost of 10 to 12 would be a fair mana cost, considering ML is a MP.

    I agree with you that 21 is wrong, what I was calling disingenuous is your claim that by looking at the text of the colored moxes vs mox lotus, mox lotus does the same thing as the other moxes, so it should cost the same.  That is a disingenuous claim because looking at the text of each card the key difference is colored vs any.  That difference means mox lotus does the same thing as the 6 other "colored" moxes combined.  Presenting them as equal to support your argument isnt right.  Now, is disingenuous harsh?  Probably, but I didnt have another word at the time.

    Mox lotus does have it's drawbacks that you pointed out, ones that would have prevented me from using it even at 5 mana.  My reasoning for 12-16, closer to 16, is, this feels like a card that shouldnt come out with 1 on color match.  It should really be 2, probably even 3, on colored matches to cast with typical PW mana bonuses.

  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    ambrosio191 said:



    Mox lotus does have it's drawbacks that you pointed out, ones that would have prevented me from using it even at 5 mana.  My reasoning for 12-16, closer to 16, is, this feels like a card that shouldnt come out with 1 on color match.  It should really be 2, probably even 3, on colored matches to cast with typical PW mana bonuses.

    Actually, the any card isn't that much of an advantage assuming you have the other moxes: you know what color you are building for so a colored mox isn't much of a drawback while having a colored mox allows you to fill an off color card with mana from the swap while using the colored mox for an on color card

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