Match Making Rating (MMR) in PVP

GrimSkald

It's been a while since I've seen anyone talk about this on the Forums, so I thought I'd open up a discussion on your Match Making Rating (MMR) in PVP.  This is what determines what you see on your nodes in PVP - so what type of players you can attack depends on your MMR.  At a certain point it "eases up" and you're able to see a bigger variety of players.

Way, way back when this actually used to be an invisible statistic on your player profile, but people abused it (they deliberately lost to make their matches easier,) so they ostensibly set it to "one level below your current roster."  Speaking for myself, I generally only see rosters more-or-less equivalent to mine.  I'll elaborate:

Right now I have a robust collection of 5* characters that vary in level between 450 and 504.  I only have two characters over 500 (Okoye at 504, and Apocalypse at 502.)  My Beta Ray Bill is following up at 497, but I only have two more characters between 470 and that.  My average 5* champ is 466.

What I see in PVP is exclusively 5* teams until I generally get well over 700.  This depends on time, of course, and sometimes I see a 4* mixed in with the 5* - I'm pretty sure this only happens with 5* players, though, who deliberately field a 4* for whatever reason.  So if I had to guess, I'd say my MMR is 5* generic?

I'm curious to know if there's a level above me and at what point that kicks in.  I'm sure others would like to know when they transit from 4* to 5* MMR, so discuss away.  Does anyone know these things?

entrailbucket

There's at least one "level" above you (3x 550 is its own entirely separate thing) and I think there are two.  I'm not totally sure because these are extremely small groups of players, you're already very near the top percentage-wise.

That 700 point where it opens up is highly variable -- what's happening there is that the game can't find fights for decent points in your roster tier, so it starts expanding who it'll show you.  I've seen it be 200 (yes, really) and I've seen it at 900 and everywhere in between. 

Matchmaking is always pretty variable because the game has to show you other players that actually exist.

KGB

I play in slice 5 (matters since different slices have different points for top players and thus point totals where you break your MMR / reach float point).

I have about 15 4* characters in the range of L330-345, the rest around L300-320 and about 25 fully covered 5* soft capped at 320.

I see a wide variety of dual 4* teams (boosted and unboosted), mixed 4 and 5* boosted teams and dual 5* teams. The boosted 4* and 5* can range up to about 440 on the high end and on the low end are at 270. Occasionally I see teams with boosted 3* (presumably if they break MMR) early in an event.

My typical experience is to enter events early (day 1 or day 2) and climb to get the 575 reward. At that point in S5, I've broken my MMR float point because I can be shown really high teams (dual 5* around L500-550). Also when I come back hours later (or next day) I will have retals from 550 5* teams (because the MMR float point is low early in the event).

On day 3 during the last 24 hrs I will complete my climb to 900+ (I'm usually knocked down to 350-400 range at this point).  I finish off any easy retals then look for new targets. I see the normal set of teams I described above until I reach around 850ish. At that point I've broken MMR again because I can and do get live hits from L500+ 5* teams so I make sure to have 3 targets queued up once I hit 820 range so I can quickly get to 900 and shield out.

In some events if I have good boosted 5* (like the recent BRB week) I can climb up to 1000 without being pounded down by L500+ teams because everyone has the same good boosted characters and so the MMR float point is higher.

KGB

entrailbucket

What you're observing there is that most MPQ players of a certain tenure and level have a routine they follow the same way every event (just like the one that you have).  Your experience is similar every event because the rest of the players around you are mostly doing the same things, at the same times, every event.

Those things aren't fixed though -- if you did different things, at different times, or in a different slice, what you'd see might be very different.  The point levels at which certain things happen can change quite dramatically.

When someone is struggling with PvP, the first thing I suggest is changing their end time.  The different end times play a little like leagues.  The second suggestion is changing the specific times that you play.  Between those two changes, you can have an entirely different PvP experience. 

Once you find something that works well for you, you'll probably be able to consistently do the same thing, because everyone else is too!

Phumade

I've seen in other games like Rocket league, the ability to see your MMR ratings for yourself and your opponents.  Its made a big difference in how players progress and how they analyze their matches.  Something similar would be a tremendous help to new players in understanding when they should and shouldn't be playing/taking matches.  I.e. I'm not necessarily saying we need to change MMR, but the elo based MMR value for the current event should be visible to all players to determine if they've over climbed compared to current leader board or if peer level rosters are avging a higher point total for the current time in the event.  Currently only very experienced and knowledge players have a good grasp on what type match points are available based on current score, top of the leadboard, and current makeup of floating teams.

I can understand and empathize with sub 3 year players feeling frustrated when they don't efficiently know how to navigate from 700 to 900 to 1200 to top 10 placements.

HoundofShadow

Slices are very important in determining how far you can climb without shielding.

The second important point is when you join pvps. If you join early, you are the one bringing points into pvps, break mmr earlier and get hit more often. I always suggest players to play within 24 hours before the pvp ends to have an easier time, if they could so.

I have played in all 5 slices before but only 3 of them are memorable to me, the rest are pretty vague.

Slice 1: easiest to hit 1200 because a lot of Line players to jack up points.

Slice 2 and 5: hardest to hit 1200 without shielding. For example, every time I hit 9xx or 10xx and trying to cross to 11xx, I'll get beaten back to 9xx. In Slice 1, I hit 1200 within 20 wins without shielding, and in these two slices, I can hit 30 wins and I'll still be at 9xx. It's like players in these slices get calls to attack whenever some stranger try to hit 1200.

Slice 3: either this slice or Slice 4 is a little weird. It's like a mix between slice 1 and slice 5. You can hit 1200, but you need more wins because after I hit 1000, points I can find is around 3X or 2X. As for slice 1, I can always find 5x, 6X or 7X points opponents after 1000 points.

My mmr is 45X. Typically, my opponents are +/- 30 levels. In the current and previous boost week with meta, the game matched me with quite a number 550 rosters or 550 boosted to 672 rosters. 

entrailbucket

It's complicated to explain, but the phrase is "a rising tide lifts all boats."

There are a certain number of points in a slice.  It always grows over time but the rate is highly variable.  In a slice that currently contains a lot of total points, it's easier for you to climb, and the equilibrium level for everyone is higher.  Placement is harder to get because everyone else has more points.

Slices generally have more points when they have more players and those players work to generate points.  Slice 1 and 4 currently have the most players (slice 4 has the best end time for most of the USA, so it's always been popular) and slice 1 has the most players working hard to create points.

Slice 2 (hi!) and 5 have fewer players and the most active players there work to destroy points, not create them.

To Phumade's point: after many years of playing at a high level, this stuff becomes intuitive, but it's actually tremendously complex and not at all obvious to anyone new or more casual.  I don't know what the fix for that is, or whether it's worth fixing.

KGB

One other thing I forgot to mention.

I can't ever recall being hit by anyone above 550 when I look at my retals (even when I'm hit by dual 550's that are the boosted characters for the week). I think the game artificially caps retal nodes for weaker rosters like mine to 550 even if the player who attacked me is above 550 due to boosted characters.

KGB

Beefhammer69

KGB said:

One other thing I forgot to mention.

I can't ever recall being hit by anyone above 550 when I look at my retals (even when I'm hit by dual 550's that are the boosted characters for the week). I think the game artificially caps retal nodes for weaker rosters like mine to 550 even if the player who attacked me is above 550 due to boosted characters.

KGB

The game definitely does not cap character levels on retals. You just haven’t ran into a “true 550” who has seal-bashed you yet, somehow. 

KGB

Beefhammer69 said:

KGB said:

One other thing I forgot to mention.

I can't ever recall being hit by anyone above 550 when I look at my retals (even when I'm hit by dual 550's that are the boosted characters for the week). I think the game artificially caps retal nodes for weaker rosters like mine to 550 even if the player who attacked me is above 550 due to boosted characters.

KGB

The game definitely does not cap character levels on retals. You just haven’t ran into a “true 550” who has seal-bashed you yet, somehow. 

That's exceptionally weird then that I've had countless hits from 550's and yet never any from 550+. You'd think at some point someone with a L451 character boosted to 551 would have hit me when I broke MMR.

KGB

SnowcaTT

I've long said match-making is basically the "rules of the game", and they refuse to say what the rules are. They should be apparent.

It's become much worse with godboost - teams can simply 'escape' from certain point areas, going completely unseen. I had one last event where I could see a team 30 points below me, but not the team that was currently tied with me, or a team 50 points above me.

If placement is a thing that is to be chased (and the game was built to make it so) - then that should be a prime metric of when you are 'seen' by others. Anyone should be able to see anyone that is in the T25 as the first (and perhaps only) matches given, regardless of roster size.

And with godboost now implemented: health levels needs to be taken out of the equation.

Timemachinego

I think part of the problem may be that there just isn't that much unshielded action available at higher point thresholds (top 5% or so) in any of the slices other than 1. I've been wondering for quite a while if it wouldn't be better to eliminate some of the slices entirely and run 3 that are 8 hours displaced from each other... I think that'd allow everyone to still find a "normal" end time that works for them while consolidating some of the competition.

acescracked

Timemachinego said:

I think part of the problem may be that there just isn't that much unshielded action available at higher point thresholds (top 5% or so) in any of the slices other than 1. I've been wondering for quite a while if it wouldn't be better to eliminate some of the slices entirely and run 3 that are 8 hours displaced from each other... I think that'd allow everyone to still find a "normal" end time that works for them while consolidating some of the competition.

A very long time ago there weren't PvP time slices. Everyone was in one big bucket just like sim.

I think no PvP time slices would make a better PvP experience. Of course those who play for placement wouldn't like it. I personally shield out well before any of the PvP time slice end times.

TheEyeDoctorsWife

acescracked said:

Timemachinego said:

I think part of the problem may be that there just isn't that much unshielded action available at higher point thresholds (top 5% or so) in any of the slices other than 1. I've been wondering for quite a while if it wouldn't be better to eliminate some of the slices entirely and run 3 that are 8 hours displaced from each other... I think that'd allow everyone to still find a "normal" end time that works for them while consolidating some of the competition.

A very long time ago there weren't PvP time slices. Everyone was in one big bucket just like sim.

I think no PvP time slices would make a better PvP experience. Of course those who play for placement wouldn't like it. I personally shield out well before any of the PvP time slice end times.

I’d love a PvP event that didn’t allow shielding . My guess is 1000 people would join in the last 45 minutes 

Sekilicious

acescracked said:

Timemachinego said:

I think part of the problem may be that there just isn't that much unshielded action available at higher point thresholds (top 5% or so) in any of the slices other than 1. I've been wondering for quite a while if it wouldn't be better to eliminate some of the slices entirely and run 3 that are 8 hours displaced from each other... I think that'd allow everyone to still find a "normal" end time that works for them while consolidating some of the competition.

A very long time ago there weren't PvP time slices. Everyone was in one big bucket just like sim.

I think no PvP time slices would make a better PvP experience. Of course those who play for placement wouldn't like it. I personally shield out well before any of the PvP time slice end times.

A few PvAI games I enjoyed had limited shielding and everyone in the same pool. PvP would look a lot different than it does now. I’m not entirely sure it would be more enjoyable, there were quite a few anti PvP threads in those games as well 

Phumade

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

acescracked said:

Timemachinego said:

I think part of the problem may be that there just isn't that much unshielded action available at higher point thresholds (top 5% or so) in any of the slices other than 1. I've been wondering for quite a while if it wouldn't be better to eliminate some of the slices entirely and run 3 that are 8 hours displaced from each other... I think that'd allow everyone to still find a "normal" end time that works for them while consolidating some of the competition.

A very long time ago there weren't PvP time slices. Everyone was in one big bucket just like sim.

I think no PvP time slices would make a better PvP experience. Of course those who play for placement wouldn't like it. I personally shield out well before any of the PvP time slice end times.

I’d love a PvP event that didn’t allow shielding . My guess is 1000 people would join in the last 45 minutes 

Thats what it all came down too.  Even in today's events, your placement largely depends on your ability to play in the last 3 hours.  Yes its true alot of vets have their routine down pat.  They know who plays in each respective bracket and the amount of effort those players are willing to put into the game.  But in a one true shard style system, placement rewards (and the need to maintain T25, T10, T5 etc) will require players to partcipate in the last hours of the event.

DAZ0273

So we should also go ahead and remove all that other pesky time period that is just sitting around and just make PvP's last an hour or two. Oh wait...I'm sure there was something like that I saw in game once?

Phumade

DAZ0273 said:

So we should also go ahead and remove all that other pesky time period that is just sitting around and just make PvP's last an hour or two. Oh wait...I'm sure there was something like that I saw in game once?

I live in the US west.  So I always believed in the one true timeslot.

Bad

DAZ0273 said:

So we should also go ahead and remove all that other pesky time period that is just sitting around and just make PvP's last an hour or two. Oh wait...I'm sure there was something like that I saw in game once?

I saw it once too. I think it was called Lighting round or something like that. 
I don't think at this heights of the game it would be a good idea changing something about pvp.
Adding new content on a new pvp mode could be great instead.

entrailbucket

When the game launched, PvP events ran for a full week, there were no shields, and only one end time.  Anything you did before the last hour or so was pretty much pointless so nobody did much of anything until the very end. 

I *think* we got shields first, then we got slices shortly after that, but I don't remember exactly when that stuff happened and maybe the order is backwards.  I don't think there was much (if any) time when we had one slice with shielding.

Phumade

entrailbucket said:

When the game launched, PvP events ran for a full week, there were no shields, and only one end time.  Anything you did before the last hour or so was pretty much pointless so nobody did much of anything until the very end. 

I *think* we got shields first, then we got slices shortly after that, but I don't remember exactly when that stuff happened and maybe the order is backwards.  I don't think there was much (if any) time when we had one slice with shielding.

we got shields before time slices.  Remember the big issue was no shield cooldowns.  So people could just endlessly buy 3hr shields back to back to leapfrog each other.  No lead was safe to a bigger bank account

fun to reminisce about the good ole days!!!!!