***** Abigail Brand (Commander of S.W.O.R.D.) *****

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Comments

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,144 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
    I agree with this.  I was using those characters as examples, you've stated my argument more clearly and generally than I did.
    This doesn’t correspond to my PvP experience. I see some, but I mostly see boosted characters and Shang-Chi with Valkyrie/Chavez especially above 800 pts after the first day. Occasionally, BRB and Polaris but that is mostly at 600pts, which is where they float when I leave those two on defense.  If I can get to 1000 points I hop off various Shang-Chi, Okoye teams worth 75 pts that are pretty obviously shield hopping themselves. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 6,157 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 January 2022, 18:24
    I tested Abigail, Odin and Wanda and it's fine. The amount of banners popping up is crazy. :D

    I replaced Wanda with Lizard and it was much better. Lizard creates 4 repeater tiles, and self fortifies them every single turn. This in turn helps Odin to create his cds that heal his allies and turn their builds to 5/5/5 and then creates strike tiles, and it also triggers Abigail's team heal thrice. On top of that, he turns blue tiles into red tiles, and many times, he creates free matches. 

    Lizard/Odin > Wanda/Odin.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,773 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think you are forgetting something. It's that there will be rebalances.
    Abigail should'nt work well with HE as he only will appreciate her yellow cd. Although HE being rebalanced that will be an almost one-sided sinergy.
    However look at Green Goblin. If he would be rebalanced their sinergy would be absolute and GG should have the strenght to take down foes with a bit of help from abigail special tiles. 
    Also there are choices in this game that close your path to others, like favoriting some meta characters over others.
    There is also the extrinsic fact that when you started playing or when you jumped into 5* land, as people who did that recently naturally have less options that vet players ( in my case I can't enjoy Phoenix rebalance, of those possibles HE and GG).
  • Hellblazer666
    Hellblazer666 Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    edited 16 January 2022, 18:49
    Abigal is nothing special I just like how easy she is to fight in PVP after that Phoenix PVP oh boy. This is the easiest 5 Star PVP I have ever played
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 1,797 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well, after reading through all this, I feel compelled to make some comments:
    1. This game is a product made for profit, so whatever sells will be noticed and repeated.
    2. The devs are trying to make a game that everyone likes; it's not just for the competitive player
    3. Only time will tell how good a character is (just like a movies)
    4. It's OK to speculate and predict how good or bad you think someone is
    5. Characters should not be judged alone; their usefulness is dependent on their partners (or future partners)
    6. The game is designed for people to pick and choose characters to chase after; I don't think you're supposed to love all of them.
    7. Disagreeing with others is fine, let's just keep it civil
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
    I agree with this.  I was using those characters as examples, you've stated my argument more clearly and generally than I did.
    This doesn’t correspond to my PvP experience. I see some, but I mostly see boosted characters and Shang-Chi with Valkyrie/Chavez especially above 800 pts after the first day. Occasionally, BRB and Polaris but that is mostly at 600pts, which is where they float when I leave those two on defense.  If I can get to 1000 points I hop off various Shang-Chi, Okoye teams worth 75 pts that are pretty obviously shield hopping themselves. 
    So you can have a good amount of success using Shang-Chi to do everything.  Do you think you'd have the same amount of success if you used Abigail to do everything instead?  Could you win the CL10 challenge node if she was your only 5* champion?  Could you hit 1200 in PvP? 

    Do you see how that is a problem?
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,773 Chairperson of the Boards
    SC on his release got comments like "it's too complicated" or "he won't have relevance in top tiers". Personally I did Phoenix pvp with him until the very end.
    SC it's an army on one. It's not fair to compare the most independent character to all the others who need sinergy, although SC could need help on the first moves in order to build his killing combo.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    Why isn't it fair to compare them?  Does Shang-Chi have more stars?  Is he newer, so he's better due to power creep?
  • Breadsticks
    Breadsticks Posts: 85 Match Maker
    Gotta say Abigail pairs really well with Mantis. They just need a strong DPS/tank to go with them. I never liked assessing things in games as "good" or "bad". I prefer optimal or suboptimal. It's more applicable since things can be subjective and metas change. If a powerful character is released that takes advantage of Abigail then the picture changes. 

    I think there are two big issues for players. Firstly, we don't really know what the devs vision is for the game in the present and the future. This is important because it clouds us into what to expect, participate in the process and creates excitement for the game. 

    Secondly, there aren't enough steady and different game modes to take advantage of these unique characters. If we had this I many of the complaints would cease. 

    We would understand what kinds of characters were coming up and how they fit within a larger ecosystem of characters and modes. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,773 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 January 2022, 21:00
    Why isn't it fair to compare them?  Does Shang-Chi have more stars?  Is he newer, so he's better due to power creep?
    SC is absolutely unique. And by playing him you are accepting his huge peaks and his huge downhills.
    He is almost a god when he is winfinite, but a mistake or not having luck with the board will turn him from a god into an amoeba.
    He has the lowest health on the newest 5*s too so using him means to hop, if you don't have the 5* buffed and really, really leveled. 
    Also AI will play him awfully on defense, only winning randomly.
    So playing SC on pvp has its limitations that other 5*s usually don't have.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ok, so Shang-Chi is much better than Abigail, but that's not a fair comparison (because he's bad on defense?  I'm not sure, but I'll agree to your premise for convenience).

    So who is it fair to compare Abigail to?  And how does she do in that comparison?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,395 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shang Chi isn’t all that unique; he plays nearly identically to 2* Bullseye and Karnak. Unique in the nonsensical match escalation for sure, but there are some trainer characters that will teach you to run the board like you need to at lower tiers.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,773 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 January 2022, 22:45
    Shang-chi is much better than abigail and they are totally opposite types.
    You could compare SC to BW as they share similar concepts and both are offensive.
    Supporting type like abigail should be compared to odin, or medusa on 4* tier, perhaps rambeau too.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,395 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 January 2022, 23:01
    Medusa was a terror when she was released, she is a good example of a support that you would absolutely take into pick-2 on purpose, and potentially not retreat if your big hitter gets taken out in the mid battle (4* tier that is, if you are in a 5* battle that isn’t going to work). I think Abigail looks like Odin to me - weak damage and support stuff you don’t need or that doesn’t work consistently enough to rely on.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,773 Chairperson of the Boards
    Playing on her pvp, and being SW a partner, if the enemy team has 3 strongest colors it's possible to switch foes and keep their AP in check, kind of like ghostpool does, but abigail does it easier.
    By the way, ghostpool and SW could be a solid team for her, as deadpool steals AP and he could finally crush the enemy with penance fare after all the healing. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,395 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m running her with Ronan and Odin in her PVP, and in this specific scenario it is working fine I suppose. The health is negligible and she is mostly just there being a required third at 1/1/1 (5/5/5 but low level assuming Odin eats a couple hits).
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    So, if you work hard enough you can find a team for her that's fun, but she's not good enough to compete with the top characters?

    That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time.
  • Daniel2121
    Daniel2121 Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
    edited 17 January 2022, 02:10
    So Abigail's best partner is 5* Witch. Great. Another Switch partner. Gogogogo Switch meta.  :s

    Another one is Ronan. He has a passive countdown and repeaters that multiply and fill the board. But Switch is the best as she has a ridiculous 1-turn repeater.
  • Daniel2121
    Daniel2121 Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
    I tested Abigail, Odin and Wanda and it's fine. The amount of banners popping up is crazy. :D

    I replaced Wanda with Lizard and it was much better. Lizard creates 4 repeater tiles, and self fortifies them every single turn. This in turn helps Odin to create his cds that heal his allies and turn their builds to 5/5/5 and then creates strike tiles, and it also triggers Abigail's team heal thrice. On top of that, he turns blue tiles into red tiles, and many times, he creates free matches. 

    Lizard/Odin > Wanda/Odin.

    Well... maybe. But you need to fire Lizard's purple for this to work. Wanda's repeater is a passive, it's always there.

    What about Human Torch. I mean the 4* Torch guy. Doesn't he have a bunch of repeaters as well? Could be useful.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 6,157 Chairperson of the Boards
    Of course! That has been the way RPG games has been like for decades. A support team, rarely can compete with aggressive team. If you bring a cleric or bard vs bringing barbarian or assassin into a non-undead boss fight, chances are, the latter will take down them much quickly. 

    Or, if the first class you choose is support/healing character at the start of the game, generally speaking, you will have a hard time leveling up or killing opponent because their attack powers are weak. 

    I think what your vision for these characters is that support/healing characters should be as powerful as melee characters, but it's rarely going to be the case. So, if you really want to compare Abigail or other support characters, you need to compare her with someone who does similar things as her, and not compare her with the Shang Chi or Apocalypse.

    It's like comparing the dps of cleric vs fighter. Cleric will always lose to fighter unless the enemies are undead.