***** Abigail Brand (Commander of S.W.O.R.D.) *****

Bad

And that is what we say the people usually commenting in here.
Now look what the top rankers are saying: crazy scores in order to get her shards.
I would'nt underrate her defensive deterrent, as she heals all the team up to 3 times. In a good team, that could be a better regeneration than OML on his days.
Imagine her on godboost healing for 5k at least each turn up to 3 times.
Who knows if in the future many people will ask for abigail nerf, at least 4* players.

Timemachinego

I still look forward to trying her with some troll teams in her PVP but I really don't expect much; I'd very much like to be proven wrong!

Sekilicious

atomzed said:

Not trying to defend against Brand’s underwhelming launch, but I think that the player base assessment of a new 5* release has not exactly been stellar. 

For example, 5* Carnage and Cyclops was nickname Carbage and Sighclops because they were universally panned as useless. But suffice to say, they are not as useless as we deem them to be.  Carbage is played often when he is god boosted and is an absolute terror in CN for SCL10. Sighclops has become a great partner to SC, a definite great 5*.

There were also other 5* which we see as “‘meh”, but during god-boost weeks, are an absolute terror. Killmonger skew the play style, with players avoiding match-5. Ronan CD damage is crazy effective. Heck, as poor Odin is, he was crucial for me during its boosted week.

Again, I am not saying that Brand is good. In fact I find her quite meh and mechanics are too complicated. But I seen enough to know that the value of a 5* is in a team. This is often shaped by the boost list for the week, the pvp (whether it is 3*,4* or 5*) and the opponents in CN.

D3 has the benefit of foresight, in the sense that they know the upcoming characters. We don’t, we only look at how the new 5* mix with the current characters. This may explain the differing assessment of the 5* between D3 and playerbase.

Cyclops has synergy with a few outside Shang-Chi as well. Colossus and Thor are examples. He was good with ProfX/Onslaught. It reminds me of the nerf-Okoye threads prior to Wanda’s release and boosted 5*s being a thing. People were complaining that the 5*s did nothing to combat the Okoye/iHulk dominance at the top of the meta while others were targeting that team with Apocalypse, Thanos, and Onslaught. Even now, some players are deriding Sersi, while others (yourself for example) are trying to get the message out that Sersi is great with Shang-Chi and Onslaught. Ultron takes down meta teams with Polaris and Valkyrie. We don’t know where Brand will end up because we haven’t tested her in a team yet. 

People think that the developers don’t know what they’re doing because they become myopic about what makes a good character and are quick to attribute incompetence rather than then accept the player base probably doesn’t have all the information. 

entrailbucket

The fact that you can cobble together some jank in pick-3 with Ultron and win fights does not make him a good character.  The fact that you *have to* cobble together some jank to win fights with him means he is a bad character.  The good characters are just good, regardless of who you pair them with.

Sersi is great with Shang-Chi, but so is *literally everyone else*.  Wasp is great with Shang-Chi, because Shang-Chi is great.


If you're choosing to run bad characters on purpose, to be different, or because you're bored, or because you like those characters, that's great and I commend you for it.  I do that.  More people should do that.  But don't trick yourself into thinking that makes them good, or underrated, or something...the bad characters are still bad.

Sekilicious

dianetics said:

Certainly that does make some sense.

But, the difference between the really good and bad characters is how well they stand on their own and let you build teams around them.

When you have characters like Apoc, SC, BRB, and Okoye they let you build around them. They aren’t complimentary piece. Being a side show is fine, but when your power set is so niche that it only compliments B-tier characters there is a problem.
It would be kind of like making another character that takes advantage of swarm tiles now.

I agree but should point out that as great as Apoc is with my limited 5* roster I struggle to find good teams for him. I target him in PvP all the time. I get that is because I don’t have Thor and don’t use boosts in every match since my HP is reserved for shields. In my roster, Apoc goes from being best of the best to solid-B+ character. Frankly, if Hank Pym was released and swarm mechanics suddenly became viable then Wasp would climb out of the trash tier and not look back. 

ThaRoadWarrior

I feel like characters who are so purely support characters that you wish you could bring them as a 4th character should potentially be rethought. I put Odin in that category, he is pretty toothless and inferior to Original Bishop. If someone isn’t good enough that you would take them into Pick 2, to me that character is DOA. Brand feels like this to me on paper but I haven’t tried her yet.

Tiger_Wong

You guys and your steadfast policies and absolutes are a big reason why you’re wrong most of the time about what character is gonna be good/bad/usable. 

Daredevil is a good character. He’s not good with everyone. 

Jean grey is a good character. She’s not good with everyone. 

IHulk is literally great only with damage boosters. Without Apoc and Okoye he’s what so many people thought he was on launch. 

Put Kitty with Hulkoye and tell me how great she is. 

You guys don’t even know characters are bad half the time So don’t get on people for trying to find other things
and try to belittle them. Because if they don’t, then that’s how Gritty isn’t formed. That’s how we don’t get Hulkoye. That’s how we don’t get Scarlet Steel. 

This is like the weirdest game for people to be acting elitist. 

HoundofShadow

A lot of gamers who strive to be at the top are usually "elitists". New players who come into forums have been seasoned to believe that when the "pro" thinks that x is bad, thinking otherwise makes you a "noob". I see this in many rpg(-like) games that I've played in the past. Likewise, for MPQ, only sharding Polaris, Juggernaut, R4G, Apocalypse, Okoye etc are the "right" choices. Other scenarios are choices of characters in "special" special stores, like Anniversary stores. When Dr Strange or OML are part of the choices, the players don't know how to play. 

Likewise, when dev creates characters that don't fit this group of players criteria, the dev are thought to be not knowledgeable about what they are doing, and, only top players know how to design and create the "right" characters.

entrailbucket

HoundofShadow said:

A lot of gamers who strive to be at the top are usually "elitists". New players who come into forums have been seasoned to believe that when the "pro" thinks that x is bad, thinking otherwise makes you a "noob". I see this in many rpg(-like) games that I've played in the past. Likewise, for MPQ, only sharding Polaris, Juggernaut, R4G, Apocalypse, Okoye etc are the "right" choices. Other scenarios are choices of characters in "special" special stores, like Anniversary stores. When Dr Strange or OML are part of the choices, the players don't know how to play. 

Likewise, when dev creates characters that don't fit this group of players criteria, the dev are thought to be not knowledgeable about what they are doing, and, only top players know how to design and create the "right" characters.

So you think a new player whose only champion 5* is Abigail will be able to do as well as a new player whose only champion 5* is Shang-Chi?

Sekilicious

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I feel like characters who are so purely support characters that you wish you could bring them as a 4th character should potentially be rethought. I put Odin in that category, he is pretty toothless and inferior to Original Bishop. If someone isn’t good enough that you would take them into Pick 2, to me that character is DOA. Brand feels like this to me on paper but I haven’t tried her yet.

Seems to me that 75% of the 5* tier and 90% of the 4* tier aren’t good in Pick-2, especially when not considering boosts.  I’m not sure if there is a game out there with that kind of balance. I do know there are none that have it with 260 and counting characters. 

HoundofShadow

That depends on how you define "do well". If both players have different goals but they hit the goals they set for themselves, did both players do well?

entrailbucket

HoundofShadow said:

That depends on how you define "do well". If both players have different goals but they hit the goals they set for themselves, did both players do well?

If one player's goal is to win matches and the other player's goal is to use Abigail, then yes, both will meet their goals.

Sekilicious

dianetics said:

I don’t know how to design. As I have said before I don’t care about characters, I care about mechanics.

if she comes out to be top tier I will happily take the L.

I was wrong about Col5 before, but I used him. I wasn’t wrong about Odin though. I like Knull who entrail doesn’t. 

This isn’t a conversation about elitism, but about perceived value. I do like Ultron I’m certain circumstances. But Abby isn’t even on that level to me.

People say the same about Heimdall yet people (like you) can make SCL10 with him as a solo champ. They would have utility together when a character comes out that can spam fortification tiles. Still not top-tier though. We are really talking about 9 of 60 characters when discussing top tier. There will always be a best-of-the-best no matter how it is balanced. 

entrailbucket

There will always be a best of the best, and it's really fun to debate that and argue about it when that argument is close or you can make the argument on a lot of different dimensions or criteria.  The problem is that that argument is not close in MPQ.

There's the top tier, and then there's a bunch of guys who are just designed for a completely different game.  The gap between the top tier and everyone else is so massive that even if there's some value to be found in the bottom tier, or they fill some niche, there's no reason for anyone to use them.

Sekilicious

entrailbucket said:

HoundofShadow said:

A lot of gamers who strive to be at the top are usually "elitists". New players who come into forums have been seasoned to believe that when the "pro" thinks that x is bad, thinking otherwise makes you a "noob". I see this in many rpg(-like) games that I've played in the past. Likewise, for MPQ, only sharding Polaris, Juggernaut, R4G, Apocalypse, Okoye etc are the "right" choices. Other scenarios are choices of characters in "special" special stores, like Anniversary stores. When Dr Strange or OML are part of the choices, the players don't know how to play. 

Likewise, when dev creates characters that don't fit this group of players criteria, the dev are thought to be not knowledgeable about what they are doing, and, only top players know how to design and create the "right" characters.

So you think a new player whose only champion 5* is Abigail will be able to do as well as a new player whose only champion 5* is Shang-Chi?

This is treading into ‘if you’re not first you’re last’ territory. If all characters that aren’t as good as Shang-Chi need a rework then the entire 5* tier outside 9 characters is trash tier. Which I get that some here think. I think the point some are trying to make isn’t that Brand will change the meta. It’s that not every character that is released needs to be meta to be a good addition to a balanced roster. 

HoundofShadow

You did not define what it means to "do well". 

The point is,  you have your personal definition of what "do well" means, and other players have their personal definitions as well. One player's definition shouldn't be seen as more superior than other players' definitions.

Players play game for their own enjoyments, and how players enjoy it are subjective. There are players who have played MPQ for over 7 years and they have only 1 or 2 5* champed. They are still enjoying themselves and they think they are doing well. On the other hand, there are those who don't enjoy this type of progress.

Likewise, players shouldn't be "shamed" or "looked down on" just because they didn't make Okoye/Apocalypse/Shang Chi/Polaris/Juggernaut their first choice, or use them majority of the time.

Blackstone

Abigail is trash.

When the clue came out I hoped for fantomex. They didn't happen.

When the powers were shown without the numbers, I hoped she could be a partner for Hawkeye. Then the numbers were released...

And I just tried to figure out what I was missing.

Seeing her in her pvp, I'm completely unimpressed. She does things, she just doesn't do them well... Or even mediocre.

The upside is I'll have a good long while to save LL tokens for after she leaves.

entrailbucket

HoundofShadow said:

You did not define what it means to "do well". 

The point is,  you have your personal definition of what "do well" means, and other players have their personal definitions as well. One player's definition shouldn't be seen as more superior than other players' definitions.

Players play game for their own enjoyments, and how players enjoy it are subjective. There are players who have played MPQ for over 7 years and they have only 1 or 2 5* champed. They are still enjoying themselves and they think they are doing well. On the other hand, there are those who don't enjoy this type of progress.

Likewise, players shouldn't be "shamed" or "looked down on" just because they didn't make Okoye/Apocalypse/Shang Chi/Polaris/Juggernaut their first choice, or use them majority of the time.

Are you serious?  I have OML, Phoenix, and Silver Surfer at 550.  Every week in PvP I play every single fight with random boosted 5* over lvl600.  In PvE I play off the clock and spend time working out fun combos with underused characters.  I love finding weird synergy. 

If you think I'm shaming players for doing exactly what I do, and what I encourage everyone to do, I don't know where you would get that. 

If anything I'm shaming the players who go all in on the "meta" characters and use nothing else ever.  Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.  If you think that's possible now, and those characters are underappreciated or overlooked, you are simply wrong.  I've tried.

HoundofShadow

I'm not singling you out. Such shaming do happen in reddit, and I'm stating what I observed.

I don't agree that level should be the main factor on whether a fight should be won easily or not. Every RPG archetype has their own strengths and weaknesses. To make it easier, these four elements are pretty common in RPG games: fire, water, earth and wind. Typically, fire is weak against wate and water is weak against earth etc. So, if I bring a level 600 fire team against a level 550 water team, I'm expected to lose or have a hard time winning.

Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each team is important in certain matches, especially against meta teams or boss battles. In many rpg games, it's quite common that to beat certain bosses only a specific type of team need to be used tp beat them and using other teams will have difficulty beating them.

Sekilicious

dianetics said:

Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.

Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.

i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread.

I do think this has everything to do with Brand. It developed because of a comment that the developers didn’t know what made characters good or bad. Some people think every character outside the top-PvP meta isn’t worth rostering and, by extension, when they aren’t worth rostering they get flabbergasted they are released at all.  It is ok if some of us push back on that meme a little bit. There is enough of that on Line, Discord, and Reddit.