What makes this game so frustrating

2

Comments

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    The main point is, you and the dev has different ways of handling cheating.

    You think that, with screenshot, conversation etc, it's sufficient to get someone banned for cheating quickly or immediately. 

    Put yourself in the shoe of the other party. They will likely ask, "how can I verify that those evidences are authentic and not doctored?" The answer is there's no reasonable way they can verify those conversations are authentic because there's a possibility that you have two accounts and you are talking to yourself.

    Let's break things down. In order to prove that the accused in question is using the particular MPQ IGN and particular LINE id, the dev need to be able to prove that the MPQ IGN, Line ID, email, phone number and conversations and whatever belong to the same person. In order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, it will involve contacting LINE, the accused's telecom provider, some other methods of verification to prove that the accused and the holder of all these accounts are the same person. 

    They banned your account because you proved to them you are the holder of the hacked account and you have shown them how it was done. However, this doesn't mean that the accused done the same thing. They will need to go through their system and look at the metrics or variables to determine if it's congruent with what you said.

    I don't condone hacking and I understand that it's infuriating that someone hasn't gotten the punishment they deserve and they are taunting and laughing in your face. Unfortunately, it's going to take them some time for them to do the right thing. 

    Again...stop with the beyond reasonable doubt! I don't disagree too much otherwise but the burden of proof you are talking about is a criminal one whereas this would clearly be a breach of terms of service/contract. Unless there was some world wide MPQ cartel smuggling CP for drugs or something...
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,040 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    The main point is, you and the dev has different ways of handling cheating.

    You think that, with screenshot, conversation etc, it's sufficient to get someone banned for cheating quickly or immediately. 

    Put yourself in the shoe of the other party. They will likely ask, "how can I verify that those evidences are authentic and not doctored?" The answer is there's no reasonable way they can verify those conversations are authentic because there's a possibility that you have two accounts and you are talking to yourself.

    Let's break things down. In order to prove that the accused in question is using the particular MPQ IGN and particular LINE id, the dev need to be able to prove that the MPQ IGN, Line ID, email, phone number and conversations and whatever belong to the same person. In order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, it will involve contacting LINE, the accused's telecom provider, some other methods of verification to prove that the accused and the holder of all these accounts are the same person. 

    They banned your account because you proved to them you are the holder of the hacked account and you have shown them how it was done. However, this doesn't mean that the accused done the same thing. They will need to go through their system and look at the metrics or variables to determine if it's congruent with what you said.

    I don't condone hacking and I understand that it's infuriating that someone hasn't gotten the punishment they deserve and they are taunting and laughing in your face. Unfortunately, it's going to take them some time for them to do the right thing. 

    Again...stop with the beyond reasonable doubt! I don't disagree too much otherwise but the burden of proof you are talking about is a criminal one whereas this would clearly be a breach of terms of service/contract. Unless there was some world wide MPQ cartel smuggling CP for drugs or something...
    That's where the NFTs come in...
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2021
    Given that our dev is greedy and cheating actually takes away a chunk of their revenues or any game's revenues, they are more anxious than us about losing money. They have proved in the past that if the cheating/exploits hit them hard enough in the wallet, they will do something quickly.

    Booting them out of the game is a temporary solution. They will keep coming back with other accounts.

    As far as been careful about reports of cheating is concerned, this is what dev said before:

    A large proportion of reports are mistaken (two common causes of this: 1) some players think they know about all the buy clubs and don't recognize players who use a different set of them; 2) sometimes players bank a whole bunch of currency or tokens over the course of many many months (sometimes years) and spend them all at once). We don't typically respond to the individual reports with specifics, because that could reveal information about how cheat detection works. Put that together and that allows the perception of cheating and its impact to be larger than the reality. I'm not sure how to fix this, and not 100% sure we should - any amount of cheating is a big deal and we're working to get it to zero and keep it there, so I'd rather deal with mistaken cheat reports than not hear about an issue.

    Burden of proof is required if it's reasonable enough, regardless of whether it is a criminal case or not. Can you imagine getting setup with that kind of flawed and one-sided evidences? I've already pointed out the loopholes in his evidences and any reasonable person would see those as loopholes. The only way that his evidences can be substantiated is when the dev check it against their system. Then, it is up to the dev to decide how they want to solve the cheating problems. If they chose not to solve it, then they will simply shutdown due to poor revenues.

    It's the same thread every few months:

    Someone from the LINE community come to the forum to create threads about cheating,  talked about how unhappy and toxic the "community" had become due to cheating and how the devs are doing nothing. After the dev solves the particular cheating/exploits, these players go back and hide in their caves, until another exploits get discovered. Rinse and repeat. The funny thing is these players are also the one who hack the game and datamine info. 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    Are these known cheaters allowed in your community chats and BCs?  Are they allowed to remain in top PvP alliances?  Allowed to merc for top PvE rewards?

    If they are, then it sure seems like the "community" actually approves of their actions.  If the community was truly upset, these players would be ostracized.

    When I cared about things like this, the community handled these issues when the developers wouldn't -- and we *did* handle them.  It also typically included large amounts of (in-game) attacks.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:

    So there is plenty of precedent to make arbitrary and capricious decisions on who's allowed to post etc... and we can either accept it or simply leave.


    I distinctly remember when tapping was a thing and the developers UNILATERALLY decided that they didn't want that play behavior in the game and changed how nodes refreshed points.  
     
     
    In this forum there are rules wich allow users to fully expressate in a civic way.
    The mod throws warnings and if the one receiving doesn't hear them, he is banned. So easy as that.
    I think you are wrong in your approach that cheaters are stealing: they are not stealing because they won't pay money. The risk at being sandboxed makes it useless all the cheating they can do.
    Devs changing unilaterally is pretty ok: the game is theirs, and not of the ones competing in the tops. Also a reminder that they know everything and they track everything at all tiers. Possibly the tier that you are playing is not the tier that the most people playing is at. So there could be issues wich need to be changed.
    Finally I have an interesting question for to change perspective a bit: Do you think people waiting staring at spreadsheets are not cheating? Because I am not so sure of the answer. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:

    Burden of proof is required if it's reasonable enough, regardless of whether it is a criminal case or not. Can you imagine getting setup with that kind of flawed and one-sided evidences? I've already pointed out the loopholes in his evidences and any reasonable person would see those as loopholes. The only way that his evidences can be substantiated is when the dev check it against their system. Then, it is up to the dev to decide how they want to solve the cheating problems. If they chose not to solve it, then they will simply shutdown due to poor revenues.

    It's the same thread every few months:

    Someone from the LINE community come to the forum to create threads about cheating,  talked about how unhappy and toxic the "community" had become due to cheating and how the devs are doing nothing. After the dev solves the particular cheating/exploits, these players go back and hide in their caves, until another exploits get discovered. Rinse and repeat. The funny thing is these players are also the one who hack the game and datamine info. 
    Huh didn't realize that game operated under the principles of democracy and rule of law?  As I understand it then, banned forum members should have a pathway back to the forums then.  I hope the mods clear that up.  Can banned forum members be allowed back on the forum with posting privledges?

    @Fightmastermpq (Please discuss that with your colleagues and post the pathway back if possible)


    Think carefully about what your last paragraph actually implies. 

    People come out to complain when they see new cheating techniques developed and implemented.  They come to a public forum to discuss those issues and refine the discussion to "is this a bad gameplay issue or an actual breach of terms of service etc".  Once those techniques are fully discussed and declared either an allowable manipulation of the system or declared an impermissible breach of terms of service, they go back to either playing the game under the new rule set or leave for a different game.

    To me that sounds like exactly what you want to happen in the forums.  
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    Phumade said:

    So there is plenty of precedent to make arbitrary and capricious decisions on who's allowed to post etc... and we can either accept it or simply leave.


    I distinctly remember when tapping was a thing and the developers UNILATERALLY decided that they didn't want that play behavior in the game and changed how nodes refreshed points.  
     
     
    In this forum there are rules wich allow users to fully expressate in a civic way.
    The mod throws warnings and if the one receiving doesn't hear them, he is banned. So easy as that.
    I think you are wrong in your approach that cheaters are stealing: they are not stealing because they won't pay money. The risk at being sandboxed makes it useless all the cheating they can do.
    Devs changing unilaterally is pretty ok: the game is theirs, and not of the ones competing in the tops. Also a reminder that they know everything and they track everything at all tiers. Possibly the tier that you are playing is not the tier that the most people playing is at. So there could be issues wich need to be changed.
    Finally I have an interesting question for to change perspective a bit: Do you think people waiting staring at spreadsheets are not cheating? Because I am not so sure of the answer. 
    Like I said,  Plenty of precedent for them to unilaterally ban players for any reason they deem fit.  Its well within their purview to decide whats a civic disscusion.  From that same perspective,  they can immediately ban any player from the game for whatever reason they deem fit.

    And yes I think I can make a strong economic case on how they could maximize earnings by targeting out the highest tier players with either a per season participation charge, a use it or lose it change to cp.  At the end of the day,  the financial dollars speak for themselves and players who don't pay to acquire resources are a drain on the financial results.  and yes I certainly recognize that having gigantic farms allow players to coast without spending a penny.  But apparently that's an allowable technique in the current system, so might as well ride that horse until its dead.  And lets be clear,  I listed several tactics to monetize the highest tier of play.

    Well if they want to ban players for using spreadsheets and timers to tell them when to start pve play, I certainly wouldn't argue with that.  Plenty of people have said, lets eliminate the clocks!


    I'm not so sure what your arguing about.  I fully agree with your sentiments on developer power, they have the absolute right to ban players for any reason they want.  FULL STOP!.  No need to ever engage in a discussion of proof, evidence or (even game play benefits).  Those concepts only exists for governments and government agencies.

    I just think its worth highlighting the many different and inconsistent ways they have used the hammer.  As a long time player of the game and the forums, I've seen plenty of shady behavior by the devs (lets not even begin to list out the things Customer Service has said and done, including different responses based on your spending levels)

    So lets not worry about burden of proofs and whats excusable behavior and simply state is this an allowable play tactic or one that would result in limited suspension or a full time ban.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    Many current, highly influential members of the Line community and top 10 alliances are admitted cheaters going back years.  This was common knowledge when I was still a part of it and nothing was ever done.

    The community could have solved the problem when those players admitted cheating, by ostracizing them, banning them from chats and alliances, and making it impossible for them to play the game the way they wanted to. Players who are ostracized quit the game.

    The community chose not to do this, because those players were "friendly," or good cupcake makers, or point scorers, or buyclubbers.

    The Line community cares, and has cared for many years, about their own rewards, rather than enforcing any sort of integrity among themselves.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Another question: was the game conceived for to announce turns on Line for gaining points on pvp? Isn't that another way of cheating?
    And the buyclubs?
    Obviously that cp hack must be punished, but looking at this thread it seems everyone is a saint and never took advantage of anything. 
    For to have a fair play all these things should be forbidden, imo. It is possible? I'm not sure of it another time. 
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,040 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    Another question: was the game conceived for to announce turns on Line for gaining points on pvp? Isn't that another way of cheating?
    And the buyclubs?
    Obviously that cp hack must be punished, but looking at this thread it seems everyone is a saint and never took advantage of anything. 
    For to have a fair play all these things should be forbidden, imo. It is possible? I'm not sure of it another time. 
    I don't think the game was conceived with those things in mind (Line coordination and buy clubs), but there's no rule against them.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    Another question: was the game conceived for to announce turns on Line for gaining points on pvp? Isn't that another way of cheating?
    And the buyclubs?
    Obviously that cp hack must be punished, but looking at this thread it seems everyone is a saint and never took advantage of anything. 
    For to have a fair play all these things should be forbidden, imo. It is possible? I'm not sure of it another time. 

    Agreed.  These are all valid game play tactics issues worth discussing.  but not in this thread which was narrowly targeted.

    1.  Is Out of game coordination an allowable or not allowable tactic?  Fair question.  Many people have suggested ways to combat this.  I have yet to seem them implement anything to prevent or slow this, so its effectively now ingrained in the game, and it turns out that there are real social pressures that force players to keep up their play and interact with others.  Is that a net good or bad?  Who knows?  I've seen game modes like Welcome to shield or one off intro events that would be impervious to that level of coordination.  Move awards to those events or try to remove names from play.

    2.  Is buyclub and the resulting shared alliance cp an allowable way to advance your roster?  Fair question.  You could immediately eliminate the shared cp and force players to direct buy cp.  Again these are financial analysis questions that balance the group-think pressure to buy.  Lots of real academic research can be use to bolster your position either way.  Ultimately that's a developer monetization question, not a fair gameplay question.

    I fully endorse you starting a 2 new threads to hone in on those topics.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cheating should never be ignored or accepted.  It’s wrong and a disgrace to yourself.  It taints your soul and is deserving of judgment and punishment. Any gains you have stolen are unsatisfying, never truly making you feel good about what you’ve done or “accomplished”.  The lazy, the liars and the cheats will not know the happiness and satisfaction that comes from honest work and progress. They are empty inside, always wanting more, never being happy with themselves. 

    From a game developer perspective, cheating undermines the game, and if it’s not controlled, then people will stop playing the game because it isn’t fair anymore. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:


    I fully endorse you starting a 2 new threads to hone in on those topics.
    I don't think those topics are so extrinsic to this theme, and I was just pointing out that devs cannot fix all the things we players think out for "bending the rules".
    In any way the topic on this thread has been already exposed and the outcome scapes from our hands.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    Phumade said:


    I fully endorse you starting a 2 new threads to hone in on those topics.
    I don't think those topics are so extrinsic to this theme, and I was just pointing out that devs cannot fix all the things we players think out for "bending the rules".
    In any way the topic on this thread has been already exposed and the outcome scapes from our hands.
    What do you mean they can't fix it?  I just outlined solutions that they can unilaterally implement for the good of the game.

    1.  For out of game comms,   Shift the rewards to modes that have no benefit to communications like prog rewards.  Welcome to shield, or eliminate names from display.

    2.  For Buy clubs, elmininate shared CP bonuses or place a hard cap on hoarded CP like 2000 cp max so spend it or lose it.  Don't let players hoard enough cp to insta max to 550.  Force them to play events and win shards incrementally.  It would be fun innovation to the game.  At the min, it would slow down roster to growth to maybe 10 levels per season.

    For recycled chars implement a new game +  variation so they can't repeat the reward tree.

    lots of solutions exist for every issue in the game.  It just requires game producers who are willing to innovate and develop all tiers of play.

    They can easily punish the players and rosters that took advantage of the CP hacks.

    From my perspective,  I could care less about any direction they take the game.  I'll just adapt my play to whatever rule set they implement and keep on trucking.  And to be clear.  I enjoy the line rooms and would still participate in chats without regard to whether they feed me cupcakes or not.

  • Thanos
    Thanos Posts: 722 Critical Contributor
    I'm sick of the speed hacking. They could easily solve it by letting you choose your game speed.
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 999 Critical Contributor
    On a different note, the GI Joe game is shutting down within 2 years of having started. I'm glad this game is still going, flawed as it may be for some. Going on a limb here, but for me the problem the OP is having looks like a problem only the very top players are experiencing. This is not saying it isn't wrong, but the scope of players affected seems limited to me.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm referring to those LINE players who only come to post in the forum when they need to rally support against developers. You hardly see them posting in character discussion threads etc. All these discussions are probably held in LINE because they already knew their abilities two months in advance.

    Players exploits the game mainly to give themselves an advantage. I don't think those players in LINE who datamine info are any different. It's just the lesser of two evils. Also, it seems like there are a lot of "politics" in SCL 10 T5 or maybe T10 placement, and this is something that most of your players won't see. As a matter of fact, none of them knows that you guys coordinate in LINE and rotate season placement rewards among yourselves.

    Anyway, cheating is for losers and it's up the developers to determine how losers get dealt with.
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I'm referring to those LINE players who only come to post in the forum when they need to rally support against developers. You hardly see them posting in character discussion threads etc. All these discussions are probably held in LINE because they already knew their abilities two months in advance.

    Players exploits the game mainly to give themselves an advantage. I don't think those players in LINE who datamine info are any different. It's just the lesser of two evils. Also, it seems like there are a lot of "politics" in SCL 10 T5 or maybe T10 placement, and this is something that most of your players won't see. As a matter of fact, none of them knows that you guys coordinate in LINE and rotate season placement rewards among yourselves.

    Anyway, cheating is for losers and it's up the developers to determine how losers get dealt with.

    You do understand that forums while neat, aren't the easiest and best way to communicate and share information. Even the developers are more active in discord. I enjoy the MPQ reddit as well.

    Is there a MPQ newsgroup? I can see if I can access my old Usenet newsreader. 😀
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sharing illegally obtained information elsewhere doesn't mean that it's okay to share them. There's a reason why characters info are not released publicly until their actual releases. Unfortunately, LINE players can't keep their hands off these info.

    Since the dev is more active in discord, then why not call them out there?  Why call them out in the forum when they know the dev won't even response?
This discussion has been closed.

Categories