What makes this game so frustrating

_Vitto
_Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
in MPQ General Discussion
Today, I had the chance to top some known player in my PvE bracket, and to win the event.

Said player, in the past couple weeks and together with some other known players, exploited a hack that allowed them to gain roughly 60-70 starks buys per day, for free. 

D3 was informed, devs were informed.

As far as I know, only a couple (fake) accounts were boxed, while the rewards the other players gained still remain.

Said player kindly pm'd to congratulate himself with me for winning the event, so I answered accordingly. Of course, the player id won't be shared.

My intent is to show the community why this game has become toxic, and how poorly hackers get caught.

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Comments

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cheating has been around for as long as I've been playing. Not saying you shouldn't be angry. You're entitled to your feelings. But I'm at the point where I just sort of accept that it's out there and all I can do is worry about me.
  • StanleyBurrell
    StanleyBurrell Posts: 143 Tile Toppler
    _Vitto said:
    Today, I had the chance to top some known player in my PvE bracket, and to win the event.

    Said player, in the past couple weeks and together with some other known players, exploited a hack that allowed them to gain roughly 60-70 starks buys per day, for free. 

    D3 was informed, devs were informed.

    As far as I know, only a couple (fake) accounts were boxed, while the rewards the other players gained still remain.

    Said player kindly pm'd to congratulate himself with me for winning the event, so I answered accordingly. Of course, the player id won't be shared.

    My intent is to show the community why this game has become toxic, and how poorly hackers get caught.

    I reported this several times myself and can’t say I’m shocked that nothing was done about it. There is no way these folks shouldn’t have been rolled back at minimum with boxed being acceptable as well. That being said good players that I know get accused of cheating all the time when they don’t so I guess it’s good the devs aren’t ban happy.

    At least you won.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    This has gone on since the game started.

    My suggestion (and one that's been quite effective in the past): figure out where this player and his alliance play PvP, then make sure none of them break 800 points or so, ever. 

    Repeat as needed until he quits the game.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think cheating will ever end. It happens all the time in many games.

    The dev and their representatives have mentioned multiple times how they handle cheating cases. In the last public communication (March 2018) we had from the dev about cheating, and this is what they said:

    - Most games have some delay between when they detect a cheater and when they're removed from the game, in order to make it more difficult for cheaters to reverse engineer the cheat detection systems and work around them.
    July 2017
    When it comes to how fast of a process it is, it's really a case-by-case basis, depending on what kind of a cheat it is and how easily it is able to be addressed. 
    Source:
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/706942/#Comment_706942


    Basically, as you can see, the players and devs have different ways of approaching cheating cases.

    The affected players way of handling cheating accounts seems to be sandboxing and rolling back resources of cheaters. This way of dealing with cheating cases is simply addressing the symtoms. I'm sure those cheaters can easily create new accounts to cheat again. Then, it will be a battle of who has more time to waste and putting CS on 24/7 to sandbox account.

    The dev's way, is, as you can see, stated above. They are studying how the cheating happens and the mechanics involved before shutting them down. Such method is considered "poor" by the players affected.

    Perspective. Perspective.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    I remember when I started playing there was an ongoing thread about how people found a way for speed play, effectively reducing the time the AI used to make its turn. All the complaints were of the developers sitting on their hands while this went on. Then a new UI was released and the complaints shifted to how terrible that was, but it fixed the speed hack. So yeah, cheating is an ongoing problem, the developers are working to fix it but do not give us play-by-plays on how they are approaching the problem. So report the player to CS and they will likely be sandboxed at a future date. And maybe stop assuming that because you don’t know what people are doing it isn’t because they are corrupt or incompetent. 
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    edited November 2021
    HoundofShadow said:


    The dev's way, is, as you can see, stated above. They are studying how the cheating happens and the mechanics involved before shutting them down. Such method is considered "poor" by the players affected.

    Perspective. Perspective.

    Sekilicious said:
    I remember when I started playing there was an ongoing thread about how people found a way for speed play, effectively reducing the time the AI used to make its turn. All the complaints were of the developers sitting on their hands while this went on. Then a new UI was released and the complaints shifted to how terrible that was, but it fixed the speed hack. So yeah, cheating is an ongoing problem, the developers are working to fix it but do not give us play-by-plays on how they are approaching the problem. So report the player to CS and they will likely be sandboxed at a future date. And maybe stop assuming that because you don’t know what people are doing it isn’t because they are corrupt or incompetent. 
    We, players, and particularly a bunch of us, investigated about the speed hack and the fake-account-buys hack.

    We provided D3 with names, screenshots, conversations, ways to replicate said hacks. 

    Countermeasures were taken for both cases: in the first one, my account was boxed (not the hackers') after I reached out and explained how to replicate the speed hack; in the second one, fake accounts were boxed and the thousands of CP illegally earned still remain.

    So yes, I do feel like calling this attitude of dealing with hackers poor.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2021
    Looking at things objectively,

    Beyond a reasonable doubt is the legal burden of proof required to affirm a conviction in a criminal case. In a criminal case, the prosecution bears the burden of proving that the defendant is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. This means that the prosecution must convince the jury that there is no other reasonable explanation that can come from the evidence presented at trial. 

    In the case of speed hack, evidences such as screenshots, IGNs, conversation, and method of hacking are not sufficient to 100% prove that the accused is indeed hacking. The reasons are simple.

    1) conversations can be doctored. Screenshots, depending on the content, could be doctored as well.

    2) Being able to replicate speed hack and showing to CS doesn't prove 100% that the accused is hacking. It merely proved that you are hacking and you admitted that you are hacking.

    However, the dev can investigate what you have provided and what appeared in their system to determine the next step of action. 

    If fake accounts were boxed, does it matter if the CPs still remain and they will eventually be banned? 

    Also, based on the conversations, it seems like you guys knew each other for a while.
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    edited November 2021

    If fake accounts were boxed, does it matter if the CPs still remain and they will eventually be banned? 

    Also, based on the conversations, it seems like you guys knew each other for a while.
    I am quoting this, replying to the rest is a waste of time. You are clearly clueless and would not matter if I get deeper into the issue.

    The "eventually" is not happening and will never happen. The CPs the exploiters got are related to Starks buys of the fake accounts (7 cp per buy). We have a list of roughly 40 names that received thousands of CP using this hack. 

    I do not know the guy. As a hitter, my name is known and there are plenty of players that would rather befriend me to avoid getting hit. He's just one of many, I can show you dozens of screenshot like that. Not doctored, but you have to trust me on this.


    What is ridiculous to me is the fact that you are focusing on me now, when some player, accused of hacking, replied saying "Hehe, my bad". 


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The main point is, you and the dev has different ways of handling cheating.

    You think that, with screenshot, conversation etc, it's sufficient to get someone banned for cheating quickly or immediately. 

    Put yourself in the shoe of the other party. They will likely ask, "how can I verify that those evidences are authentic and not doctored?" The answer is there's no reasonable way they can verify those conversations are authentic because there's a possibility that you have two accounts and you are talking to yourself.

    Let's break things down. In order to prove that the accused in question is using the particular MPQ IGN and particular LINE id, the dev need to be able to prove that the MPQ IGN, Line ID, email, phone number and conversations and whatever belong to the same person. In order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, it will involve contacting LINE, the accused's telecom provider, some other methods of verification to prove that the accused and the holder of all these accounts are the same person. 

    They banned your account because you proved to them you are the holder of the hacked account and you have shown them how it was done. However, this doesn't mean that the accused done the same thing. They will need to go through their system and look at the metrics or variables to determine if it's congruent with what you said.

    I don't condone hacking and I understand that it's infuriating that someone hasn't gotten the punishment they deserve and they are taunting and laughing in your face. Unfortunately, it's going to take them some time for them to do the right thing. 

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    _Vitto said:

    What is ridiculous to me is the fact that you are focusing on me now, when some player, accused of hacking, replied saying "Hehe, my bad". 


    It's not ridiculous. It's simply a matter of the word of one vs the other's word. The guy can reply whatever he wants, as later he could say he was just joking.
    Any proof you can provide against other players can be manipulated so contact support will start the investigation on his own ways and possibly not really taking your proof as the golden truth evidence. 
    If you say how it can be replicated(possibly they already know it), then the first step is sandboxing you.
    Even if you make a video screen and show how you were gaining cps illegally because of hacker players, the first step will be sandboxing you as you provided a good proof against you.
    Big companies have great detecting resources for to seal off the app, but each game can be different.
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    HoundofShadow said:
    The main point is, you and the dev has different ways of handling cheating.

    You think that, with screenshot, conversation etc, it's sufficient to get someone banned for cheating quickly or immediately. 
    Nope, I do not mind them taking their time, my evidence is not enough.
    But in front of several tickets and evident proof (the buys are there, 70-80 buys per day for two weeks from a single account), I would expect the punishment to be delivered, and it is not.

    HoundofShadow said:

    I don't condone hacking and I understand that it's infuriating that someone hasn't gotten the punishment they deserve and they are taunting and laughing in your face. Unfortunately, it's going to take them some time for them to do the right thing. 

    Again, I'm fine with "some time". However, their record, for example, shows that 0 speed hackers have been banned in the past (particularly a certain player that dominatest PvE now, precisely because they did nothing to stop him from reaching 550s), except the one guy that reported them. 

    I am certain this matter will follow the same path.
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    Bad said:
    _Vitto said:

    What is ridiculous to me is the fact that you are focusing on me now, when some player, accused of hacking, replied saying "Hehe, my bad". 


    It's not ridiculous. It's simply a matter of the word of one vs the other's word. The guy can reply whatever he wants, as later he could say he was just joking.
    Any proof you can provide against other players can be manipulated so contact support will start the investigation on his own ways and possibly not really taking your proof as the golden truth evidence. 
    If you say how it can be replicated(possibly they already know it), then the first step is sandboxing you.
    Even if you make a video screen and show how you were gaining cps illegally because of hacker players, the first step will be sandboxing you as you provided a good proof against you.
    Big companies have great detecting resources for to seal off the app, but each game can be different.
    And that is exactly why devs can manage this game the way they do, without the community even flinching.

    Caring about the game's health does not pay off.
  • JackDeath666
    JackDeath666 Posts: 47 Just Dropped In
    Well said @_Vitto

    This scam is a total disgrace and undermines the entire game. Devs failure to roll back illicitly earned CP is a total let down. Many people are aware of the players involved. 

    @HoundofShadow @Sekilicious @Bad Please can you refrain from distracting from the issue being raised here? It's not about how screenshots can be doctored; it's about how rampant cheating is happening and nothing is being done. 
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    JackDeath666 said:
    Well said @_Vitto

    This scam is a total disgrace and undermines the entire game. Devs failure to roll back illicitly earned CP is a total let down. Many people are aware of the players involved. 

    @HoundofShadow @Sekilicious @Bad Please can you refrain from distracting from the issue being raised here? It's not about how screenshots can be doctored; it's about how rampant cheating is happening and nothing is being done. 
    That is your opinion, since this thread is here so I am also entitled to express mine. Mine is that saying nothing is being done is incorrect. I didn't say anything about this shouldn't be posted here. I get the mindset of the squeaky wheel getting the grease, hence everyone thinks the only way to get attention or results is to engage in vocal hyperbole, sometimes in all caps. But assuming incompetence or corruption does not jive with what has been done in the past. I provided examples for my opinion, you are providing hyperbole for yours. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nothing is being done? Last time the whole UI was changed and the infamous dimming screen was released. A lot of impaired players complained and who knows how many quitted the game.
    This thread is like the one on that time: devs or contact support are not gonna give info of the punishment or the steps they are taking against hackers to the people repporting it.
    But if course they will be doing things, they are interested on it.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2021
    Here's an article about cheating in other games:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/6/21246229/pc-gaming-cheating-aimbots-wallhacks-hacking-tools-developer-response-problem

    Microsoft plans to prevent games cheating on pc and this is what they said:

    Due to the open nature of the PC platform, cheating in PC games is a complex and varied challenge. The PC ecosystem consists of several layers, such as hardware, the operating system, 1st and 3rd party software, services and more. 

    The Security Engineer in LINE also documented cheating in LINE Games, and it's virtually impossible to prevent from cheating.

    Why cheating will never end:

    Eventually we realized that cheating itself was a goal for some users and they were going to return no matter how many of their accounts we banned,” says John McDonald, senior software engineer at Valve, in a statement to The Verge.

    So, it's not a problem unique to MPQ. At best, they can only hardened their system until players find new ways to exploit the system again.

    So, accusing dev of doing nothing about cheating is a terrible lie.
  • JackDeath666
    JackDeath666 Posts: 47 Just Dropped In
    Many thanks for your thoughts. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Here's an article about cheating in other games:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/6/21246229/pc-gaming-cheating-aimbots-wallhacks-hacking-tools-developer-response-problem

    Microsoft plans to prevent games cheating on pc and this is what they said:

    Due to the open nature of the PC platform, cheating in PC games is a complex and varied challenge. The PC ecosystem consists of several layers, such as hardware, the operating system, 1st and 3rd party software, services and more. 

    The Security Engineer in LINE also documented cheating in LINE Games, and it's virtually impossible to prevent from cheating.

    Why cheating will never end:

    Eventually we realized that cheating itself was a goal for some users and they were going to return no matter how many of their accounts we banned,” says John McDonald, senior software engineer at Valve, in a statement to The Verge.

    So, it's not a problem unique to MPQ. At best, they can only hardened their system until players find new ways to exploit the system again.

    So, accusing dev of doing nothing about cheating is a terrible lie.
    Just box them and kick them out of the game.  D3 isn’t a govt entity and they don’t have to follow due process etc.  they can just unilaterally remove players.  I don’t ever rember their being a gamers bill of rights.

    personally the devs should be the ones going on the warpath because these players are stealing money out of their pockets not mine.

    I haven’t spent money on this game in years because I know players have cheat for years in this game.  I’m just lucky that I understood the mechanics of this game well enough to mitigate the worst effects of their spending.

    Instead of worrying about the players rights why don’t you think about how the stolen money could be used to pay better salaries for the artists and fund more developments.  Alll I ever hear is that new features cost development time and money.

    anyway if the devs are okay with letting players steal from them (and let’s be clear it is stealing) then,  I don’t see any particular reason to buy anything know that my purchases is condoning that behavior.

    trust me I’m more than happy to show receipts for every dollar spend I’ve done in this game


  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Looking at things objectively,

    Beyond a reasonable doubt is the legal burden of proof required to affirm a conviction in a criminal case. In a criminal case, the prosecution bears the burden of proving that the defendant is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. This means that the prosecution must convince the jury that there is no other reasonable explanation that can come from the evidence presented at trial. 

    In the case of speed hack, evidences such as screenshots, IGNs, conversation, and method of hacking are not sufficient to 100% prove that the accused is indeed hacking. The reasons are simple.

    1) conversations can be doctored. Screenshots, depending on the content, could be doctored as well.

    2) Being able to replicate speed hack and showing to CS doesn't prove 100% that the accused is hacking. It merely proved that you are hacking and you admitted that you are hacking.

    However, the dev can investigate what you have provided and what appeared in their system to determine the next step of action. 

    If fake accounts were boxed, does it matter if the CPs still remain and they will eventually be banned? 

    Also, based on the conversations, it seems like you guys knew each other for a while.
    This is not a criminal case so the burden of proof is nowhere near that level.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Its Ironic.  I know lots of people who have been banned permanently from the forums for violating some bizarre forum rule over 5 years ago.  And won't reconsider their bans to this day (I know I have asked them to unban players based on elapsed time).  At the end of the day its D3 right to set their rules and uphold their punishment unless people think I should initiate legal action to force them to unban forum members LOL.

    So there is plenty of precedent to make arbitrary and capricious decisions on who's allowed to post etc... and we can either accept it or simply leave.

    Part of me sincerely thinks if they can push out the biggest cheaters, (who inevitably are the big whales)  They will create space for little up and coming players to grow, spend and expand into the space.  As it stands now,  There is no incentive to ever buy an offer from the game knowing,  you could easily cheat your way into the char.

    My immediate suggestion is temporarily ban CP usage.  If people who actually bought Starks want to complain,  feel free to refund players who can show a direct buy from google or apple.  Just because you got 7 cp from an alliance buy doesn't mean your entitled to a cash refund.  Allowing players to hoard resources into targeted purchases was also a game breaking decision that should have been stopped years ago.  (maybe limit cp hoards to 1000 max)  as a use it or lose it resource.

    People who cheat once will forever cheat, don't let them hide by allowing one massive cheat and then pretend we didn't know how to track.  If you force them to cheat every week to maintain their play, it should be much more obvious vs someone who claims they redirected their bonus check to  the game.

    These are all common financial analysis techniques that allow for better expense controls.  It be said if D3/Demi didn't have enough managerial talent to know how to implement these common everyday systems.

    Feel free to keep up with the direct buy packages.  Those are much easier to track.  Maybe gate SCL 10 with a subscription play plan.  $10 dollars a season to participate and use chars at their highest level etc...

    I distinctly remember when tapping was a thing and the developers UNILATERALLY decided that they didn't want that play behavior in the game and changed how nodes refreshed points.  

    Think about that.  They literally changed game play mechanics based on some belief that they alone had the superior right to decide how much time players could devote to the game.  I don't remember any health studies being cited or government mandates dictating that decision.  It was the game developers decision alone!


     
     
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