MID. Lethal loop interaction of "Curse of Vitality" and "Highborn Vampire" [Investigating]

JinQuiet

I post this as a bug because such a type of 2 cards interaction was fixed immediately when it happened previously. I suppose this is an interaction between cards was simply overlooked by the developers and should be fixed as fast as it was done before.

========================
Before it took developers 1 day to fix the problem.
The loop was discovered on 25 of august 2020
The fix was applied on 26 of august 2020

Previous time this happened when it turned out that the interaction between these two cards turned every match into a lost game every time the cards were deployed the fix was applied immediately.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/83337/patch-notes-08-26-20

Patch Notes (08/26/20)
Change
    The text and behavior from Bolrac-Clan Crusher (RNA) changed in order to stop its OP interaction with Chandra's Pyreling (M21). From:
"Whenever a creature you control gets buffed, deal 2 damage to your opponent's Planeswalker."
TO
"Whenever a creature you control gets buffed, deal 2 damage to your opponent's Planeswalker. This effect can trigger up to 2 time(s) per turn."

Cards in question were:
Bolrac-Clan Crusher
Whenewer a creature you control gets buffed, deal 2 damagree to you opponent's Planeswalker.
This effect can trigger up to 2 time(s) per turn

Chandra's pyreling
When you deal noncombat damage to your opponent's Planeswalker: This creature gets +2/+0 and gains double strike until the end of the turn.

========================

The same type of fatal infinite loop interaction was introduced with the last expansion, MID
It happens when these two cards are put into play.

Curse of Vitality
When your opponent dealt damage. you gain 4 life.

Highborn Vampire
When you gain life: Your opponent loses 1 life.

========================
It has been almost a month since the release of MID and fix hasn't been applied yet.

I expect the fix for this interaction to be made as soon as possible.

Thank you.

Magic:PQ Support Team

Hello @JinQuiet

Thank you for all the information provided, this issue will be investigated!
If you have any additional information that you consider relevant, please don't hesitate to send me.

Rebeca.

Janosik

Wizard Class also go on forever until i die 

JinQuiet

The issue hasn't been fixed in 5.3.0.

OperaSM

This is not a bug.  The cards are working as intended and written.  Many combo players such as myself greatly enjoy card interactions like this.  If you call for every synergistic 2 or 3 card interactions like this to be nerfed/changed, it alienates a sizable subset of the player base and makes us less likely to continue playing.  Designers should keep the playstyles of various player types in mind, designing cards for all of them.

There are plenty of cards in Standard to keep Curse of Vitality + High or Vampire pairing in check.  Cards that prevent someone from gaining life, support destruction, etc.  I haven't seen this deck running rampant in TG or other events.  I see a lot more Tainted Adversary and dragon combo decks personally.  I'm not calling those "bugged" or to be changed for being too powerful.  I realize people like playing those kinds of cards/deck types and accept it as part of the MTGPQ experiences.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on this matter.  I respect that we have differing views and things we like and dislike about the game.  I hope you can also see things from the viewpoint of other player types and realize making these changes to the cards would significantly diminish their enjoyment of the game.

JinQuiet

OperaSM said:

This is not a bug.  The cards are working as intended and written.

I agree that this is not a bug.

Why then the interaction between these two cards was fixed in 1 day and interaction in question still persists?

Bolrac-Clan Crusher
Whenewer a creature you control gets buffed, deal 2 damagree to you opponent's Planeswalker.

Chandra's pyreling
When you deal noncombat damage to your opponent's Planeswalker: This creature gets +2/+0 and gains double strike until the end of the turn.

Effects of the interaction were the same, fatal unstoppable loop.
Deployment of the interaction loop was technically the same.

OperaSM said:

I hope you can also see things from the viewpoint of other player types and realize making these changes to the cards would significantly diminish their enjoyment of the game.

All right then.
I will follow some basic standards of consistency

Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling interaction fix (fixed in 1 day) robbed player base of MTG PQ of the way of getting  guaranteed victory and managed to, direct quote "significantly diminish their enjoyment of the game".

Additionally the original Bolrac interaction was actually available to the wider range of players (non VIP) consisting only from common/uncommon cards hitting "player-base enjoyment" even harder.

For some reason this fact is conveniently overlooked.

============================
I hold developers to the standards they've set to begin with, by the precedent they've set themselves that I presented in the original post and in this one too.

If the Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling interaction was fixed then the Curse of Vitality + Highborn Vampire should be fixed as well.

Alternatively, if decision to leave it persists then Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling fix should be revised back.

KrizzB

@JinQuiet you are purposefully ignoring the big difference here. The Crusher + Pyreling combo because of it being so low rarity meant quite a lot of players had access to it, but you could also play and trigger the loop on the very same turn meaning there didn't exist any way of stopping the loop from happening at all..

Curse of Vitality however is easily countered by many cards, just to give two examples: Roiling Vortex and Fracture. 
Fracture will destroy Curse of Vitality and Roiling Vortex will stop any lifegain..

Now please stop this incessant crusade to fix something that isn't broken and go enjoy the game ❤️

JinQuiet

The issue hasn't been fixed in 5.3.1

JinQuiet

The issue hasn't been fixed in 5.3.2

Julie71

@Oktagon_Support

Janosik

JinQuiet said:

If the Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling interaction was fixed then the Curse of Vitality + Highborn Vampire should be fixed as well.

Alternatively, if decision to leave it persists then Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling fix should be revised back.

Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling are both uncommon, Curse of Vitality is a Masterpiece. Perhaps that's the important difference.

Then again, Wizard Class is also uncommon, and it endures.

Maybe Oktagon should post some kind of guidelines on which combos are considered too powerful to exist, and which should be nerfed for the continued health of the game, to help us players understand?

Mainloop25

My personal feeling is that any 2-card combo that only needs the two cards cast once to cause a lethal/game stall loop should be fixed.

Wizard Class doesn't fall into this category, so it can still exist.

BongoTheGrey

I agree, Wizard Class shouldn't be considered here because you have to build the whole deck to work around it. It is an actual combo deck. A combo that only needs 2 or 3 cards to win in one turn should definitely be nerfed.

If they nerfed Devilish Valet so fast because it could win in 1 turn combined with Conqueror's Pledge. Why haven't they killed this infinite combo of Curse of Vitality + Highborn Vampire yet? Is equally easy to pull if you have the cards. You just need to drop 2 cards and immediately win. Just as easy as limiting Highborn Vampire's effect to trigger X times per turn.

Julie71

Janosik said:

JinQuiet said:

If the Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling interaction was fixed then the Curse of Vitality + Highborn Vampire should be fixed as well.

Alternatively, if decision to leave it persists then Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling fix should be revised back.

Bolrac-Clan Crusher + Chandra's pyreling are both uncommon, Curse of Vitality is a Masterpiece. Perhaps that's the important difference.

Then again, Wizard Class is also uncommon, and it endures.

Maybe Oktagon should post some kind of guidelines on which combos are considered too powerful to exist, and which should be nerfed for the continued health of the game, to help us players understand?

that is an excellent idea.   perhaps post it in the next q&a

zzedar

Was trying out a Dakkon deck based on the Curse of Vitality combo and I discovered two minor bugs.

First: if the action that started the combo was a creature attacking, I get the loop prevention dialog box after a minute, as I should. However, if the initial trigger was Dakkon's first ability, I do not get that dialog box.

Second: when you look at the Battle Log after the match has finished, if the triggering event was a creature attacking, that attack does not show up in the log.

Full decklist is as follows:
Curse of Vitality
Whir of Invention
Highborn Vampire
Defiant Bloodlord
Epicure of Blood
Cliffhaven Vampire
Finale of Revelation
Cut Your Losses
Idyllic Tutor
Pull from Tomorrow

Magic:PQ Support Team

Hello @zzedar ,
Thank you for all the information provided, this issue will be investigated!
If you have any additional information that you consider relevant, please don't hesitate to send me 😊
Rebeca.

Youzerfriendly

First: If you trigger the loop before you play a card, you do not get the loop check. The loop check only happens after you make a swap. If you cycle a card that heals you and starts the loop, it will also not ask you to stop it. IMO, this is fantastic because it'll just loop until you win. Please do not fix.

Second: The battle log is always wonky when you win with a loop. The order in which things actually happen and the order that they get spit into the battle log are not always the same.

JonJohns

@OperaSM said:
If you call for every synergistic 2 or 3 card interactions like this to be nerfed/changed, it alienates a sizable subset of the player base and makes us less likely to continue playing.

The problem with this is you don't support the "sizeable subset" claim. In that same vein, the argument can be made that the sizeable subset of players who face this combo who have ZERO recourse other than quot or lose are alienated and are less likely to play. I have rage quit this app twice for the same issue that OP is addressing. Right now in Platinum events, a sizeable subset of players are using Dakkon, and another sizeable subset of players are using Ajani, and those 2 planeswalkers are dominating the higher end of the game right now BECAUSE they have access to these 2 cards combo win conditions. Dakkon has access to all 3, and Ajani has 2. When ½ the players I encounter in coalition events are using Dakkon, the game is lopsided. Your tune would be different if you didn't have access to these combos and your opponents did. You wouldn't find it very competitive, I'll wager.