PvP MMR

Sekilicious

So I am trying to understand the intricacies of PvP MMR. I am currently can make it to 75 wins quite easily within the Polaris meta (Grocket > Karnak > Sabertooth and back again. There is some variance in this with other meta toons). The effort is usually quite minimal as Polaris is a speed demon who dominates her own mirror match, barring any unforeseen cascades that happen once or twice an event. As I start to shift into the 5* realm with my recently covered Kitty Pride, at what point can I level her and expect the 4*s to shift to single champed 5*s? Since I currently start to see champed meta 5*s when I reach top 10-20 in PvP I expect that will remain the same and 1200 pts will continue to be out of reach until I champ a few more meta 5*s .  Has anyone had a different experience with a single 5* champ?

Feel free to use this thread to ask your own MMR questions. The beauty of this site is that there are so many here who know the answers to questions that I have not thought of yet. 

dianetics

The best bet would be to not level her at all if you want to stay in the 4* tier

Rod5

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

entrailbucket

Rod5 said:

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

Right, you're seeing champion 5* teams when you climb very high because there are no 4* fights the game can give you (that are worth double digit points).

I've said it a thousand times...matchmaking is not a fixed thing because the game can only show you fights that actually exist at the time.  Every team you see is another player.

helix72

Rod5 said:

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

This hasn't been my experience, ever since I jumped into 5* land, when I initially start a PvP, even after clearing the seed teams with only 3* toons, I am immediately presented only with other 5* champed teams to face. Once you "break" MMR, which for me on most events is around 1,000 points, then it's based on the teams that are unshielded and with point values near mine.

With a single 5* champ, I would expect you will face other single 5* champ teams a lot on your climb. From my experience jumping into the tier, if you're going to do it with only 1 character, either Kitty or Apoc are the 2 best. But I expect you will get matched up with other single 5* champ teams, which you should be able to take down easily BUT you will be largely limited to using Kitty in every PvP battle from now until you start champing more 5*. Just be prepared for that, and you likely won't be that scary to most other single 5* players because of 4*s like Morbius, Sabretooth, and Mantis.

entrailbucket

helix72 said:

Rod5 said:

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

This hasn't been my experience, ever since I jumped into 5* land, when I initially start a PvP, even after clearing the seed teams with only 3* toons, I am immediately presented only with other 5* champed teams to face. Once you "break" MMR, which for me on most events is around 1,000 points, then it's based on the teams that are unshielded and with point values near mine.

Which team you're currently using doesn't affect who you can see -- that's based on your roster.  If I win the seed team fights with 2* characters, I'll still only see 550 opponents.  It does, however, affect who can see you.

Based on that 1000-point "break" mark, I'm guessing that you play S1 or S4, somewhere near the middle of the event, at a normal sort of time.  That number is highly variable though!  It's based on how many "good" matches (by the algorithm's definition) are available for you at that time. 

If you play a less populated slice, at an odd time, or at the very beginning or end, that number could be more like 600.  I've seen it go as low as 300. 

The tradeoff for a lower "break" number is a much slower climb, as the fights will either be much more difficult or have much lower points (depending on your roster -- for me it generally means doing my climb on mostly 5-10 point fights).

Bad

If you are just playing on 75 wins, it really doesn't matter much if you fight stronger opponents: just lose some matches and you will see easier teams again. 
If you want to go for QL, and to chase 1200 points, then you need to shield and learn how to be hopping.
You need to play in a high scl for you can't lose too much hp when shielding.
And you need speed.

shardwick

I think you should stay in 4* land and level up your 5s as your top 4s get stronger. If it's fairly easy for you to chew threw 75 wins then I think you're in a good place. How many points are you able to get currently in pvp? 

Rod5

helix72 said:

Rod5 said:

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

This hasn't been my experience, ever since I jumped into 5* land, when I initially start a PvP, even after clearing the seed teams with only 3* toons, I am immediately presented only with other 5* champed teams to face. Once you "break" MMR, which for me on most events is around 1,000 points, then it's based on the teams that are unshielded and with point values near me.

Then you misunderstand. The relative roster level is the most important thing, I’ve queued up people over with similar rosters who are over 3k from zero, it’s about who is available ie unshielded in your MMR and preferably in a similar points range.

skittledaddy

@Sekilicious
Your Quote: 
"I expect that will remain the same and 1200 pts will continue to be out of reach until I champ a few more meta 5*s."



You do NOT need 5* champs to reach 1200 points. I have ZERO 5* champs and hit 1200 in every event.
Proper shield hopping is the key to reaching 1200 points if you have a 4* roster like ours. I can usually hit 1200 points in about 25-30 battles. From there is when I have to decide if I want to push further or not (event or season placement being the reason).
Example, in the "What If" event that just ended my final score was 1696 points. I can't see how many battles that took me (since it's over for me), but it was probably in the high 30s. Who did I use to get there? POLARIS and GROCKET, and my soft-capped BRB as a 3rd (since this was a pick-three event). Who do I use in other pick-two events? POLARIS AND GROCKET.
Like was mentioned above, it's all about speed. And if you queue up a reasonable couple of opponents, there isn't much that's faster than those two. Are they weak on defense? of course they are, but that's what shields are for. There is NO BETTER defensive meta in this game than a shield.

Also important to note, I play S1. S1 and S4 are the slices with higher scores available overall. When I played in S5 I never got higher than about 900 (I also wasn't good at shield hopping, either).

entrailbucket

Some of this is also about opponent selection.  High level PvP players mostly choose fights based on points.  Generally they'll hit a more difficult high-point team over an easier low-point team. 

You have such a massive advantage on offense that pretty much any fight is winnable, so if you're skipping a lot of high point fights you think you can't win, you may want to reconsider.

In fact, one good reason to level up your guys is that you get much easier access to higher-point fights.

TheEyeDoctorsWife

I will never understand MMR no matter how many people here explain it . My 5s are 450, yet my opponents average 490-500.  Granted I’m playing an AI which probably gives me a 50 level advantage but in a true PvP with alternating first moves I’d lose the vast majority of my battles. And I don’t progress that high , these battles start at the first opponent and I only go into the 600s

Bad

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

I will never understand MMR no matter how many people here explain it . My 5s are 450, yet my opponents average 490-500.  Granted I’m playing an AI which probably gives me a 50 level advantage but in a true PvP with alternating first moves I’d lose the vast majority of my battles. And I don’t progress that high , these battles start at the first opponent and I only go into the 600s

More info it's needed here. Wich team you usually play, when you see those opponents, why you are losing so much.

HoundofShadow

Are you including opponents from retal (red nodes)? 

DAZ0273

Sekilicious said:

So I am trying to understand the intricacies of PvP MMR. I am currently can make it to 75 wins quite easily within the Polaris meta (Grocket > Karnak > Sabertooth and back again. There is some variance in this with other meta toons). The effort is usually quite minimal as Polaris is a speed demon who dominates her own mirror match, barring any unforeseen cascades that happen once or twice an event. As I start to shift into the 5* realm with my recently covered Kitty Pride, at what point can I level her and expect the 4*s to shift to single champed 5*s? Since I currently start to see champed meta 5*s when I reach top 10-20 in PvP I expect that will remain the same and 1200 pts will continue to be out of reach until I champ a few more meta 5*s .  Has anyone had a different experience with a single 5* champ?

Feel free to use this thread to ask your own MMR questions. The beauty of this site is that there are so many here who know the answers to questions that I have not thought of yet. 

When I was moving towards being a 5* player I started seeing single champed 5* MMR from around level 365-370ish on my highest 5 - that was from the start of a PVP not just when players were shielded. This makes sense as that is the threshold for max champed 4s which are probably going to be rarer than single champed 5s playing in game and available as opponents.

As others have said your leaderboard ranking is irrelevant because you are not being matched up just against players in your leaderboard but from the entire slice you chose to play in.

DAZ0273

entrailbucket said:

helix72 said:

Rod5 said:

As soon as you level her, your MMR will change. Who you see in PvP as your matches has nothing to do with your ranking. Only your points, your roster and whoever else is unshielded near your score define who you see.

This hasn't been my experience, ever since I jumped into 5* land, when I initially start a PvP, even after clearing the seed teams with only 3* toons, I am immediately presented only with other 5* champed teams to face. Once you "break" MMR, which for me on most events is around 1,000 points, then it's based on the teams that are unshielded and with point values near mine.

Which team you're currently using doesn't affect who you can see -- that's based on your roster.  If I win the seed team fights with 2* characters, I'll still only see 550 opponents.  It does, however, affect who can see you.

This. You can beat those seed teams with 1* teams and when you get to the end of them you will still be presented opponents based upon your relevant roster based MMR. However, if you want to fight 1* or 2* battles you are going to have to wait for somebody to attack and beat your defensive team so you can get a retal. If you attack any other team before that happens then your defensive team is re-set and you will now show as a higher MMR level team for those who can see you.

Sekilicious

entrailbucket said:

Some of this is also about opponent selection.  High level PvP players mostly choose fights based on points.  Generally they'll hit a more difficult high-point team over an easier low-point team. 

You have such a massive advantage on offense that pretty much any fight is winnable, so if you're skipping a lot of high point fights you think you can't win, you may want to reconsider.

In fact, one good reason to level up your guys is that you get much easier access to higher-point fights.

If I skip it isn’t because I don’t think I would not win. It is because it would either take too much time (boosted 5*), there is a high chance I would use multiple health packs and I am out (Polaris and Grocket mostly), or the opponent isn’t worth any points.

Sekilicious

skittledaddy said:

You do NOT need 5* champs to reach 1200 points. I have ZERO 5* champs and hit 1200 in every event.
Proper shield hopping is the key to reaching 1200 points if you have a 4* roster like ours. I can usually hit 1200 points in about 25-30 battles. From there is when I have to decide if I want to push further or not (event or season placement being the reason).

Oh yeah, I’m trying to avoid using Line for the time being. I generally can only play at certain times, especially if working away from home. But regardless, when I reach top-20 or so I stop seeing opponents I can easily take down. I’m not sure how to do them quickly enough for shield hops to be feasible.

Sekilicious

DAZ0273 said:

When I was moving towards being a 5* player I started seeing single champed 5* MMR from around level 365-370ish on my highest 5 - that was from the start of a PVP not just when players were shielded. This makes sense as that is the threshold for max champed 4s which are probably going to be rarer than single champed 5s playing in game and available as opponents.

As others have said your leaderboard ranking is irrelevant because you are not being matched up just against players in your leaderboard but from the entire slice you chose to play in.

This is good stuff. I was thinking a good strategy for both PvE and PvP might be to find the balance where I can level my 5*s and still maintain my current strategy. Also, when I talk about leaderboards it is a short-hand for when I either break MMR (what I think is happening) or I’m a more attractive seal or walrus for someone who already broke MMR. I notice it when I’m high on the leaderboard, but I know it is more complicated.

entrailbucket

Sekilicious said:

skittledaddy said:

You do NOT need 5* champs to reach 1200 points. I have ZERO 5* champs and hit 1200 in every event.
Proper shield hopping is the key to reaching 1200 points if you have a 4* roster like ours. I can usually hit 1200 points in about 25-30 battles. From there is when I have to decide if I want to push further or not (event or season placement being the reason).

Oh yeah, I’m trying to avoid using Line for the time being. I generally can only play at certain times, especially if working away from home. But regardless, when I reach top-20 or so I stop seeing opponents I can easily take down. I’m not sure how to do them quickly enough for shield hops to be feasible.

You don't need Line/coordination to hop the way he's describing.  It makes it easier and more reliable but it's definitely not necessary.

It's simple -- when you're out of good fights, shield up.  Then, every once in awhile, skip until you find 2 or 3 good fights and keep them in your nodes.  Break shield to do those fights, then shield up again and repeat as needed.

Sekilicious

entrailbucket said:

Sekilicious said:

skittledaddy said:

You do NOT need 5* champs to reach 1200 points. I have ZERO 5* champs and hit 1200 in every event.
Proper shield hopping is the key to reaching 1200 points if you have a 4* roster like ours. I can usually hit 1200 points in about 25-30 battles. From there is when I have to decide if I want to push further or not (event or season placement being the reason).

Oh yeah, I’m trying to avoid using Line for the time being. I generally can only play at certain times, especially if working away from home. But regardless, when I reach top-20 or so I stop seeing opponents I can easily take down. I’m not sure how to do them quickly enough for shield hops to be feasible.

You don't need Line/coordination to hop the way he's describing.  It makes it easier and more reliable but it's definitely not necessary.

It's simple -- when you're out of good fights, shield up.  Then, every once in awhile, skip until you find 2 or 3 good fights and keep them in your nodes.  Break shield to do those fights, then shield up again and repeat as needed.

Right. Good point.  I have 255 roster spots so am essentially post-HP. Even if I only have around 4K. I can afford more shields.