This game is NOT F2P!

rkd80

As a relatively new player (21 days in) I wanted to make an observation, although I am sure this has been mentioned before. I have been reading Clintman's posts, along with many others who have given great suggestions - and wanted to share my perspective as a newish player and have only been exposed to the most recent changes. I understand this game went through a lot of changes, from being an actual F2P to the current disaster it is now.

If new players like myself are needed to continue feeding the community, then D3 is doing it wrong.

I spent about 10 bucks so far buying roster spots. I jumped on this forum quickly and began doing everything right. So I maxed out my storm, im35 and got bw high enough. Specced them out just right. Put a lot of time into it, so I got there quickly. It was fun to progress, be choosy who I fight and anticipate the next wins. I placed ok in PvE/PvP events, but it occurred to me that placing too high made little sense - because what use was that 3* cover anyway?

At this stage, partially based on bad luck, I have 7-8 covers for: Thor, Ares, C. Storm, MMN, Wolvie, Moonstone, Bullseye. Because the character progression in MPQ is completely broken, whereby 2* characters with 7 covers are weaker than my full 1* characters - I cant use them! I made a post about this earlier, but it is laughably stupid that they would design it this way...or perhaps an evil genius, since they are nudging me into spending money to buy those additional covers to make my 2* viable. Well, D3, at 5 bucks a cover, I would need 15 more covers to get one 2* team. Thanks, but not thanks. That is stupid, I can buy an xbox game for that.

So I figured, hey, this is a F2P game, then I can just grind my way through this.
Except that you really cannot.

At this stage, I have around 12 or so 3* covers that even more useless than my existing 2* covers. I got about 90k in ISO with nowhere to put it. I have in my queue, 67 1* covers that I collected. Yes, 67. Maybe others have way more, I don't know, but that is one messed up RNG if that is the case. Which means, that if I were to choose F2P, I have an absolutely infinite grind ahead of me.

NONE of the events make sense in placing high, since it is actually more 3* covers that are of no use. I am top 10 in the PvE, but what for? So I can get 2 Sentry covers for which I would just need to buy more roster space for?

There is no way to put time into this game and get what I need, which is 2* in my case. Instead I get 1* non-stop. For the more mature players, it seems they have exactly the same problem, but one stage higher - where they just keep getting useless 2* covers.

This functions unlike any other game I have ever played, there is a fundamental flaw here. What I think needs to happen is the following:

1) D3 needs to listen to the players on this forum. You guys know what you are talking about.
2) Before any PvE/PvP there should be an option of what you want to play for. A 1*, 2* or 3* bucket. Then all rewards will be coming to you in that bucket. The difficulty of the event will then be scaled based on the natural selection of the players.
3) Make 2* viable before all the covers appear. Why should a level 50 Ares be weaker than a level 50 IM35? That is silly.

I am going to wait around a bit to see if the next patch addresses any of these major problems, otherwise there is no point in continuing. Not because I do want to, but because D3 makes it impossible.

Apologies for the rant(ish) vibe, but wanted to share my thoughts as a new player.

Twysta

It's pretty telling that even after most of the comments on here that we now actually have a new player coming on to say...

"What are we going to do with these 3* covers now?"


But still they're going to keep pushing new players to compete with older players for the same rewards... because why?

Unknown

2* is essentially useless beyond OBW, Ares, Thor, MMN and C Storm. Wolverine is probably the next most useful after that - it used to be Daken but Lazy Daken changed that. All of those covers are incredibly abundant from node rewards since the recent changes - you'll be binning them soon. Of the ones you want to spend on, OBW is the clear (but possibly nerfbound) winner with Thor tanking... but MMN and C Storm is a great combo too and I still use them even against very strong PvE opponents.

3* is where it's at however and if you miss getting the covers now then you'll regret it later - especially since the game gets harder as you get stronger (erm, not sure if that makes sense or not). Absolutely 1* at 40 are better than 2* at 40, and 2* at 85 are better than 3* at 85... it's just the way it works. For that reason I don't recommend levelling 3*s until you know you can get them over lv100 - especially as the game will scale opponents to the level of your roster. Keep banking that ISO and then use it in one big SPLURGE on your top 2* or 3* covers.

Twysta

Why would d3 want new people to skip the 1 - 2* transition though?
The way they're formatting it, that's almost a lot more feasible... but isn't really a logical progressional step.

rkd80

I understand that there is future potential in 3* covers, but it is so far away that all they do is pull more money from us by taking up roster space. I would be even willing to do that, even though it is a hell of a commitment. You are essentially spending money on something you cannot use for months! This is largely why so many people find spending money here so unrewarding. Who spends money with the idea that they will enjoy it in 2 months? It is actually against human nature.

The 2* covers are supposed to be abundant, but they are not. They certainly come, but I need 10-13 covers to make the 2* playable and it is currently impossible to collect them. Not with any sort of repeatable or known fashion. After 67 1* covers, just in the past 5 days, I think I have demonstrated that I am at least trying. They are not coming, the pressure to buy is palpable, but at 5 bucks a cover it is never going to happen. I am not a whale, and I also understand that 2* is temporary - so spending - at this stage - 60+ bucks on temporary characters is absurd.

Unknown

The game's progression is slow as hell because they don't have a lot of content. So, they need to string you along as long as possible. ( To be fair, if they pushed out more content, people would probably b!tch about it)

I've been playing since early October and am just getting to the point where I have a diverse collection of 'playable' 3 star characters. None that are even maxed yet (although I could have, if I wanted to).

So, you need to accept that you are running a marathon and you are currently on mile #2, or you might need to find a different game.

noobprime

rkd80 wrote:

The 2* covers are supposed to be abundant, but they are not. They certainly come, but I need 10-13 covers to make the 2* playable and it is currently impossible to collect them. Not with any sort of repeatable or known fashion.

Actually, the transition speed is FAST now (1* to 2*). With they giving out 1-2 star covers, it's practically light speed compared to back in the day where you didn't get bupkis. That's a good thing BUT they did this specifically so that people would buy more roster spots since the 2* - 3* is now like walking through the valley of death.

Your only hope may be to get out now

scottee

It took me far more than 21 days to have a maxed 2*. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Keep working toward 2*'s. They come in tokens, they come as event prizes, they come as random drops in PVP's. The next step of your progression is to get a team of maxed out 2*'s. 4 or 5 level 85 heros will get you a long way.

I think some of the angst comes from the speed at which people think progression is reasonable. I think I had a team of maxed 2*'s somewhere during my 2nd month of play. I felt a sense of accomplishment. Then I finally got my first maxed 3* around day 100. Now I have two. Both felt very accomplished. But it took time. This isn't a 60-hour xbox game where you should be into the end game content in a week. Plan for the long term. Set your sights on immediate goals to improving your roster. It's like expecting to compete for top placements in a triathalon when you've only been competing in them for a year. Work on improving your roster and beating your personal best in terms of placements, and you'll progress.

Unknown

Interesting perspective. I had been playing this game near the beginning when there were hardly any 3 stars characters. Every event was relevant because the character roster was so small that any new 2 star or 3 star was interesting. I also agree with the weirdness in investing dollars in things that don't become useful for months. I have tons of 3 star characters that never get used because really.... How could they? To get them as strong as my 2 star takes so much time. It's a major reason you see repetitive fights with the same 2* characters in pvp. Unless you are a whale it will take ages to get a 3 star roster going. He'll come to think of it, I don't have 13 covers for ANY 3 star and like I said I've been playing since the start !

That said, the ticket to 2 star for you seems way more doable than the 3 star grind. Playing pvp gets you a 2 star cover at 600 points, and you often get 1 being top 50 or so. Card packs often guarantee 2 star, so winning enough to get the heroic or event tokens is another way. Just winning a pvp match can get you one too

It's 3 star that's borderline impossible, and actually where things break down for me. To get a 3 star I need to get top tier rankings and 1100 points... With stiffer competition and still while losing points as I get attacked with farther to fall. Once I get a 3 star, I have to grind almost an unbelievable amount to get them viable in a pvp match. The only time my 3 stars get used is when they get buffed in pvp

Nemek

I don't get it, which part makes it not F2P?

The rate of 2* cover acquisition is the highest it's ever been in the game. During those "glory" days of early MPQ, you'd have to win a 5-day long PvP just to get 3 Caps/Moonstones/OBWs/M Hawkeyes. I just got two 2* characters while beating seed teams in 15 minutes. Looks pretty consistent too...I haven't sold covers in 3 LRs, have 7 2*s in the cache.

Unknown

This game is F2P for some of us older players who have been playing before the end of last year.

However, I have noticed that it is periodically getting harder and harder for the new player to progress further ahead to catch up to the veterans.

Reason:
1) Hero Points earning methods are being squeezed dry. With covers no longer granting HP for sale, Standard Tokens having Stealth Patched to remove 25HP, your only chances are to get lucky in daily rewards, get PVE progression which is very little and slow, or get good placements in PVP tourneys. That last part is very difficult for a new player, and even requires you to get into a good alliance. How many alliances are willing to accept a new budding player?
Futhermore, Shields cost money. A good player can earn 100 HP from placement, another 100 HP from Alliance, and the last 50 from 900 point progression. A new player, the progression is highly unlikely, top 100 for 50 HP is possible, and Alliance, let's hope he get lucky. If he wants to score any higher, he will have to fork out at least 75 HP for shielding or be the target of a g@ng b@ng. How much do you think he can earn?
2) More 3 Star characters, but fewer slots. The number of 3* stars have increased. But the chances of getting them through tokens have not increased much. In other words, you're likely to get more 3* covers than you have slots for. For a new player to try to get as many of the good 3* stars he needs without selling off too many, is near impossible, unless he paid for slots.
3) Lightning Round rewards got nerfed. For me, and for many other players, the LR were the best places for us to obtain 3* covers so that we could transition to 3* star characters. Sadly though, that was taken away. Now, you get 2* star tokens which have the insulting low drop rate of approx 15% for 3 stars. So you're going to have to work 6 or 7 times harder than we did.

I really feel sorry for the players who did not get a chance to get 3* stars from the LR. Sorry, but there's no easy way for you to build up on your 3* covers now. Whoever nerfed the LR rewards probably thought that 3* star covers were given out too easily for too low profits, so that has got to go.

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

I don't get it, which part makes it not F2P?

The rate of 2* cover acquisition is the highest it's ever been in the game. During those "glory" days of early MPQ, you'd have to win a 5-day long PvP just to get 3 Caps/Moonstones/OBWs/M Hawkeyes. I just got two 2* characters while beating seed teams in 15 minutes. Looks pretty consistent too...I haven't sold covers in 3 LRs, have 7 2*s in the cache.

Back in the days, you can have a complete 3* team in 2 weeks from the LR. Could get 2x 3* star covers easily every 2 hours.

Now.... say hello to Captain Americas and Bagmen. Well at least they're worth 250 ISO now.

NEMEK, Just the person I wanted to see!!!!

I need your opinion!!
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What do you think of the song I wrote?

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

I don't get it, which part makes it not F2P?

The rate of 2* cover acquisition is the highest it's ever been in the game. During those "glory" days of early MPQ, you'd have to win a 5-day long PvP just to get 3 Caps/Moonstones/OBWs/M Hawkeyes. I just got two 2* characters while beating seed teams in 15 minutes. Looks pretty consistent too...I haven't sold covers in 3 LRs, have 7 2*s in the cache.

At one point last week I had over 40 covers just sitting in my cache. This was from event tokens (mostly standard) and random pulls from winning PVP matches.

Getting covers seems pretty easy and transition to 2* is faster/easier than it's EVER been.

Unknown

The biggest problem with the two-star transition is that there are only a small handful of effective characters. If characters like Bullseye, CapAm, Mod. Hawk, Dakan, etc were a bit beefier, a user would have more options in making the transition out as the covers came in.

You don't really have that problem with the three stars. The vast majority are effective. Most that aren't were hobbled by the devs (Loki, Rags, Spidey)

rkd80

Toxic, you are right, for those that read the forum and know the relative strengths of characters the amount of 2* useful covers is extremely low. Even 2* wolverine is not worth pursuing, because he is a one trick pony. Why should I invest my hard earned ISO into him when I need to spend it on Thor, OBW, Ares. I discard cap, moonstone and bullseye often - and for whatever perverse reason they seem to be what I get the most of. Perhaps it is just my perception.

In either event, if we had more of a choice in viable characters it would be far more interesting.

Unknown

In terms of PvP there is obviously not very much content. There are like maybe 3 viable 2* teams and 5 viable 3* teams plus whatever people end up fielding because they lack the powerhouse characters, and whether transition is slow or fast it'll still feel like you're fighting the same 5 overpowered teams over and over because that's just how it is.

For PvE the progression is much better. I have every 3* max covered minus HT or later characters, and I'm still looking forward to getting the covers. Having the 4th cover on Redwing will give me a lot more options in PvE, for example.

Unknown

Folks, there is a simple premise behind all of this. Been meaning to type this one for awhile... so it is longread time.

/businessvoiceon

If one takes a look at pie chart from the Venturebeat, Part I Article, showing the pie chart of hard currency spend:http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/08/marvel-puzzle-quests-road-to-the-mythical-1-arpdau-part-1/,

There are three primary revenue drivers (in order of size):

-- Cover Pack Sales
-- Roster Slot Sales
-- Direct Ability Upgrade Sales

Granted, the data may be a bit outdated at this point, but the chart shows that these three vectors generate 90% of hard currency sales at the time the graph was generated.

From a business perspective, a good business would examine how to capitalize on these success factors to boost revenues. After all, a game with falling revenues might as well be a dead game.

Everyone knows that F2P games operate by a concept known a churn. Players enter and quit the game daily. New players are the best opportunities for revenue generation, as they are not yet entrenched in the game's various systems. Shocking news to no one, really.

-- Cover sales do quite well on their own, and the cover store makeovers serve to make purchasing tokens more consumer-friendly (from the storefront perspective) than ever. But, likely, roster slots and ability upgrades are areas of opportunity for improvement.

Now, D3 surely has a ton of data that indicates how long the average player that is "sticky" (lasts beyond the initial mythical 5-day newbie window) actually hangs around before leaving the game for greener pastures.

A logical business maneuver would be to examine how to maximize revenue generation during the window that most new players exist in the game before leaving. All of the recent changes have been made to address this business concern.

-- As stated everywhere on the forums, the best course of action for new players in regard to HP is to purchase roster slots.
-- The change to create soft brackets for new players increases the likelihood of winning 3*** covers, requiring more roster slots to keep the characters won.
-- The change to generate 2** cover rewards as normal Versus fight prizes, serves the same role to flood inventory with new covers that require roster slot purchases to keep the characters won.
-- To mitigate the potential for naturally incurring enough HP to buy roster slots, the early slots are bundled to encourage buying HP to fund these slots.

-- All of these new characters need covers to be effective, which would in turn spur direct cover sales.

At the end of the day, these changes are being made to maximize revenue generation among the churn of new players entering the game. This is a normal business practice for companies that do not want to go out of business.

/businessvoiceoff

From a gamer perspective, I would be more than happy to join in with the torches and pitchforks. I do believe that the game is rather unfair to new players today than those that joined six months ago. Based upon various dev comments posted over time, I personally believe that the game was initially developed as a packaged good product, as this is what Demiurge has experience with creating at the time. Over time, with acquired experience, the game has been slowly recast to be closer to F2P and now straddling the line to P2W and even P2P, with each passing update and demonstrates little resemblance to the original incarnation of the game.

Is this a good thing? Objectively, I don't know. My "old-school" gamer side of me subjectively hates these changes, but I have been fortunate enough to be one of those "veterans" who have mostly escaped these changes and have reached the end of the Golden Road where I am reasonably self-sufficient and therefore of little intrinsic value to Demiurge. If I were to restart today, I have to ask myself if I would be willing to start up the ladder again from scratch as new player. I am a notoriously stubborn person, but even then, I am unsure I would allow myself to go through what new players experience, even under the vaunted Puzzle Quest brand.

Unknown

With the change that allows you to get 2* covers in PvP, progression is more than fair for the new guys. The problem is that fair doesn't cut it when you're fighting the top 3 2* or top 5 3* the whole time because by now it's pretty clear what those teams are.

Let's say a new character is gifted a level 141 GSBW and level 141 Spiderman for just starting the game. He would still not be getting anywhere because he'd be matched up against other 141s (no reason not to if you're gifted 2 141s for starting the game) and yet these characters aren't exactly competitive against say, Thor + Magneto or Daken + Falcon.

Something has to be done to increase variety in PvP. Nerfs/buffs wouldn't do it because you will still eventually settle on a new top tier very quickly. You can remove Thor, Magneto, and Daken from the game and you will quickly have 3 guys that replace them on the top and nothing has changed.

rkd80

I am trying to desperately point out that the game moves in very strange and boring bursts. Due to the nature of making characters viable after a critical mass of covers has been collected makes it seem like the goal is unreachable. As a 1* player, I do not want to collect 3* from drops. I do not care for them right now, at all. I want what I can use! But they just keep adding more and more characters, so the chance of me getting something usable keeps dropping. I got punisher, invisible woman, dr doom, psylocky, lazydacken, black panther, etc, etc. Woohoo, thanks, but no thanks. I have twice as many 3* characters in my roster than 2* and yet I cannot use any of them. I can dump them sure, but why? Its not like I need to make space for anything because there are 4 2* characters worth collecting.

So I just grind it out with the same team over and over and over until I finally collect the missing 5-6 covers for Thor, Ares, OBW and maybe C. Storm? So I roughly need 20 specific covers for these characters, and basic math suggests:
That I get one 2* cover for every twenty 1* cover while playing PvP. However only half of those are useful to me. So for every 40 matches I can *hope* to get a viable 2*. However there is also tiny little ISO drops too, so it is more like 1 out of 50 for my 2* cover. Which means I need to play around 1,000 PVP matches to get a 2* roster. That is 1,000 matches with the same team - over and over and over, now I am estimating because at some point presumably one 2* character is maxed and we can use them, but the monotony is overwhelming.

That is what makes this game NOT F2P. Because nobody in their right mind would play 1,000 matches just to get a 2* roster - so we pay. But it is waaaaay to expensive, something Clintman has eloquently demonstrated in his various posts.

Unknown

rkd80 wrote:

I am trying to desperately point out that the game moves in very strange and boring bursts. Due to the nature of making characters viable after a critical mass of covers has been collected makes it seem like the goal is unreachable. As a 1* player, I do not want to collect 3* from drops. I do not care for them right now, at all. I want what I can use! But they just keep adding more and more characters, so the chance of me getting something usable keeps dropping. I got punisher, invisible woman, dr doom, psylocky, lazydacken, black panther, etc, etc. Woohoo, thanks, but no thanks. I have twice as many 3* characters in my roster than 2* and yet I cannot use any of them. I can dump them sure, but why? Its not like I need to make space for anything because there are 4 2* characters worth collecting.

So I just grind it out with the same team over and over and over until I finally collect the missing 5-6 covers for Thor, Ares, OBW and maybe C. Storm? So I roughly need 20 specific covers for these characters, and basic math suggests:
That I get one 2* cover for every twenty 1* cover while playing PvP. However only half of those are useful to me. So for every 40 matches I can *hope* to get a viable 2*. However there is also tiny little ISO drops too, so it is more like 1 out of 50 for my 2* cover. Which means I need to play around 1,000 PVP matches to get a 2* roster. That is 1,000 matches with the same team - over and over and over, now I am estimating because at some point presumably one 2* character is maxed and we can use them, but the monotony is overwhelming.

That is what makes this game NOT F2P. Because nobody in their right mind would play 1,000 matches just to get a 2* roster - so we pay. But it is waaaaay to expensive, something Clintman has eloquently demonstrated in his various posts.

1000 PVP matches? Where did you get that number from? And who is ONLY doing PVP? You also have the prologue to play, along with any PVE event going on. I'm not really seeing what you're trying to argue here. You're making it sound like it takes 3-4 months to max out 3 2*'s when really it takes a fraction of the time.

rkd80

I showed you the math, the odds are derived from the math on the forums. PvE yields a very negligible amount of 2* covers. You place well there is an event token, but that could be 2* or 3* or whatever. Hence people get a wide distribution of covers but none of it is actually usable.