God-boosted 5*s paving the way for character buffs?

Daredevil217

Is it time to look at buffing old 5s again? I think most players have been on this train, but from a developer standpoint it never really made sense. Pre-god boost, they could put significant time and resources into improving a character, but if the buff doesn’t vault them into the top 5 or counter-meta category, the character won’t get used much (and by definition there can only be 5 in the top 5 lol).

But now that we have the god-boost rotation, there seems to be three categories now: 1) always useful/meta, 2) useful when boosted, and 3) won’t use even if boosted.

Take Archangel. He received a small buff and was never used. However, on his god boost week I saw him used a TON (tier 2 character). That said, I don’t think I ran across a single Star-Lord, even with a 100 level boost (which would put him in tier 3).  It makes me wonder if he’d be a candidate for a boost to bring him at least into that second tier?  5s are so resource-intensive to collect and champ, I don’t think there should be any garbage in the top tier. 

Just spitballing, but do you all think that god boosts are the first step towards finally rebalancing some of the trash tier? 

Sekilicious

This is a good question. If boosted 5* hint at developer plans it might be they are paving the way towards a 6* tier, though I’m not convinced they mean anything. 6* characters woul would provide something for whales to chase while continuing to release 5* and ditching new 4* releases. However, back to the original question, if the 4* tier is any indication, then trash characters will just be ignored with the understanding that not every character can be useable and they need to save ideas for future releases. Rebalanced characters are likely a thing of the past. 

Captain_Trips88

The problem with trying to buff some of the older 5* is that it wouldn't simply be a case of throwing HP, match and power damage at them to make them better but would instead need a reworking of their powers because of how limited they are in comparison to newer 4* let alone 5*. Starlord was a prime example of that during his boost week. I have him championed and didn't use him at all because his powers have so little impact on the board in comparison to so many other characters who not only do the same thing but also offer something in addition, normally damage of some kind or improving of tiles that are actually of use. 

Maybe there is some analysis going on during boosted 5*s to see which characters would get used if they had health/damage that allowed them to compete with modern 5s and they might get a buff but anything more than that is probably too much work alongside ongoing developments. 

HoundofShadow

It's a waste of time to rebalance those characters, as long as the major factors used by players are speed, dmg/ap and/or Okoye/Apocalypse test. Dr Ock was the first 5* to get those buffs and he's still "unusable". Archangel is still "unusable" after some minor buff, god boost aside.

In the meantime, they can continue the boost until October and let it take a break until next year. At best, they pick 1 character to rebalance that would be tied in to some major comic/series/movie release.

entrailbucket

Daredevil217 said:

Is it time to look at buffing old 5s again? I think most players have been on this train, but from a developer standpoint it never really made sense. Pre-god boost, they could put significant time and resources into improving a character, but if the buff doesn’t vault them into the top 5 or counter-meta category, the character won’t get used much (and by definition there can only be 5 in the top 5 lol).

But now that we have the god-boost rotation, there seems to be three categories now: 1) always useful/meta, 2) useful when boosted, and 3) won’t use even if boosted.

Take Archangel. He received a small buff and was never used. However, on his god boost week I saw him used a TON (tier 2 character). That said, I don’t think I ran across a single Star-Lord, even with a 100 level boost (which would put him in tier 3).  It makes me wonder if he’d be a candidate for a boost to bring him at least into that second tier?  5s are so resource-intensive to collect and champ, I don’t think there should be any garbage in the top tier. 

Just spitballing, but do you all think that god boosts are the first step towards finally rebalancing some of the trash tier? 

I think your concept of tiers 1, 2, and 3 makes a lot of sense (time to redo the power rankings?), but it's going to be a little difficult to figure out who's really in tier 3 without running different combinations of 5* boost lists.  Maybe that's why they changed from the chronological list?

Before this all started I'd have put guys like Archangel and Ock in tier 3 for sure, but it turned out they were tier 2.  Starlord sure seems like tier 3, but was it just because there were better options during his week?  A lack of synergy with the other guys on his list?  Or a 2-character combo that everyone ran that week?

For the guys who actually are unusable in every case, a health and match damage buff won't cut it.  They'd need to completely redo their powers from scratch.  So if they plan to do this they might want multiple cycles to make sure.

Daredevil217

Captain_Trips88 said:

Maybe there is some analysis going on during boosted 5*s to see which characters would get used if they had health/damage that allowed them to compete with modern 5s and they might get a buff but anything more than that is probably too much work alongside ongoing developments. 

That’s kind of what I’m wondering. I don’t know what their schedule looks like ATM. Maybe they’re done overhauling the UI (something I don’t remember anyone asking for) and now have more time for rebalances (something many people asked for)?

HoundofShadow said:

It's a waste of time to rebalance those characters, as long as the major factors used by players are speed, dmg/ap and/or Okoye/Apocalypse test. Dr Ock was the first 5* to get those buffs and he's still "unusable". Archangel is still "unusable" after some minor buff, god boost aside.

I both used and saw Ock/Angel used heavily during their respective weeks. You can’t say “god boost aside” when it’s a thing now. That’s the whole point of this thread. The behavior of players totally contradicts your post. People WERE using these characters, despite your assertion to the contrary. By the way, Colossus/Wanda- the new hotness team is slow, has very little damage, and doesn’t include Okoye or Apoc. The fact that they’re popping up everywhere also contradicts your belief about players. Why is it popular then? You seemed to have forgotten that defense is also an important factor in PVP. Many want to play the most annoying team possible to get hit less. Stacking 100+ levels worth of health powers levels, and match damage absolutely puts some of these older 5s in that annoying to face category. 

HoundofShadow said:

In the meantime, they can continue the boost until October and let it take a break until next year. At best, they pick 1 character to rebalance that would be tied in to some major comic/series/movie release.

Is there any indication that this is happening? Usually when a widespread change happens with no announcement, it is here to stay. Like moving the CP reward to 1200 in PVP. We never received an explanation, many complained, but it’s the new norm. 

Conversely, when it’s a short-term experiment, they usually let us know and ask for feedback. I think of Gwenpools event as an example where they explicitly stated they’d be monitoring feedback to decide how/if to run it again.  I feel it is here to stay and is one of those changes those who don’t like change will groan about and eventually adapt to, but am willing to admit it’s just wishful thinking on my part. 

entrailbucket said:

Daredevil217 said:

Is it time to look at buffing old 5s again? I think most players have been on this train, but from a developer standpoint it never really made sense. Pre-god boost, they could put significant time and resources into improving a character, but if the buff doesn’t vault them into the top 5 or counter-meta category, the character won’t get used much (and by definition there can only be 5 in the top 5 lol).

But now that we have the god-boost rotation, there seems to be three categories now: 1) always useful/meta, 2) useful when boosted, and 3) won’t use even if boosted.

Take Archangel. He received a small buff and was never used. However, on his god boost week I saw him used a TON (tier 2 character). That said, I don’t think I ran across a single Star-Lord, even with a 100 level boost (which would put him in tier 3).  It makes me wonder if he’d be a candidate for a boost to bring him at least into that second tier?  5s are so resource-intensive to collect and champ, I don’t think there should be any garbage in the top tier. 

Just spitballing, but do you all think that god boosts are the first step towards finally rebalancing some of the trash tier? 

I think your concept of tiers 1, 2, and 3 makes a lot of sense (time to redo the power rankings?), but it's going to be a little difficult to figure out who's really in tier 3 without running different combinations of 5* boost lists.  Maybe that's why they changed from the chronological list?

Before this all started I'd have put guys like Archangel and Ock in tier 3 for sure, but it turned out they were tier 2.  Starlord sure seems like tier 3, but was it just because there were better options during his week?  A lack of synergy with the other guys on his list?  Or a 2-character combo that everyone ran that week?

For the guys who actually are unusable in every case, a health and match damage buff won't cut it.  They'd need to completely redo their powers from scratch.  So if they plan to do this they might want multiple cycles to make sure.

To me a tier 3 character is one who doesn’t ever get used over an unboosted 5, even with a 100+ level boost. You’re right that we might need more combos to figure out who those characters are. But I also think we have a pretty decent idea. I think Iron Man is also one I might have saw only 1-3 times while boosted. Whereas Cap I saw a ton. 

As for my character rankings, I need to update them in general. I’ve had quite a few people ask me about it. My thing is:

1) I’m in the process of moving across the country and just generally have been busy.

2) I haven’t been playing with my new champs pretty much at all because I’ve been rocking whoever is boosted and enjoying that. Hard to tear myself away from boosted Peter Parker to see how Knull and Kitty play together so I can write about it. 

3) I do think the boost list means reevaluating how we look at characters. As an example, I have something written for Adam that I haven’t posted to my ranking yet.  Reading it back, the whole “X is better, so Y is expendable” thing carries way less weight when Y is a monster boosted (as I imagine Adam will be).  For reference, this is what I wrote: 

Adam Warlock (Infinity Watch)

Recommended Build: 5/5/3 (for more sustainability)

Alternative Build: 5/3/5 (for faster offense)

Adam Warlock is a unique character in that health management is the key to running him successfully. If you can keep him topped off (and there are several ways to do so), he can dole out boosted match and passive AOE damage. Much like Onslaught (mentioned later), Adam is a character that hits hard out of the gate, but has diminishing returns as a match drags on and he gets injured.  He’s an overall solid choice to build around in pick-3, but is much harder to utilize competitively in pick-2, where all of his tricks are done better by others. 

Adam Warlock’s yellow (Miracle of Science) is a cheap 6 AP ability that heals him a small amount (4673-7009) if he’s above half-health, and a much larger amount (7476-11214) if he’s below half-health. The reason for that additional boost is that Adam’s yellow also has a passive that states his match damage is increased by 76-113% if his health is above 50%.

Like Adam Warlock’s yellow, his purple ability (Cosmic Skein) is yet another cheap power that has the potential to true heal him. For 7 AP, Adam places 4-5 yellow trap tiles that damage the enemy if they match them (7971-8642) or heal Adam that same amount if your team matches them. The best part about this ability is that the traps do something great no matter which team matches them, and the amount of damage done (or health restored) by this power is by no means inconsequential. The biggest drawback however is the fact that the traps all land on yellow. So a dry board (or match against stupid Maggia goons) could make them hard to access. 

So, why all the healing? Great question, dear reader! It’s because Adam’s main damage-dealing ability comes in the form of his passive black ability (Body and Soul). If at the start of your turn you have 4-6 black AP banked (the threshold goes down with each  additional cover), Adam spends one and loses 15% of his health. Then, 55-60% of that damage is dealt to the enemy team.  So, at full health, this salvo does about 5800-6300 damage to the enemy team. 

Adam Warlock actually has some versatility to his kit and I see him mainly played two ways. “Offensive Adam” is best at 5/3/5 where the goal is to use his yellow and black passives to deal quick damage (boosted by partners if possible) as much as you can. He’s likely going to be more health pack intensive, killing himself to pump out passive AOE damage. The amount of damage is inconsequential as it will ideally be ramped up by others. “Defensive Adam” is best at 5/5/3 where the goal is to play him as a sustainable tank with multiple methods of healing. Here, the main source of damage will be “chip damage” from his traps and high match damage. But his main role will be absorbing damage meant for others, and healing himself back up via his active abilities. So defensive Adam is great for climbing and saving packs, while offensive Adam fits into the boosted passive damage meta.  While he boasts a lot of strengths, it should be noted that Adam’s main issue is that the things he does best are done better by others. For example: 1) there are plenty of characters that don’t have to chase AP to heal, 2) if building around his match damage boost, Colossus quite frankly does it much better, and 3) his passive AOE is not quite good enough to supplant Hulkoye in pick-2 (though he can make a decent third for them). 

Pairings:

Depending on how you build Adam, he can work with several characters. He’s one of the few who can cheaply heal back Immortal Hulk’s friendly damage while tanking some colors and providing a second source of passive AOE damage. Okoye and Apocalypse are characters who can boost Adam, but the competition for yellow on the former means Adam will likely be eating health packs so Okoye can keep her boost going.  As a “defensive climber”, Adam is all about chip damage; so strong nukers that cover most of the rainbow are his best play. Thor is a great option to keep Adam healed (via passive yellow AP collection) while drying the board of his own strong colors, so Warlock can stay in front tanking. Beta Ray Bill, has green/blue nukes and protect tile spam to shield Warlock when his health is low. Havok and Parker Spidey are excellent pick-2 parters who have outlets in all of Adam’s weak colors. The latter’s crit-spam is especially nice with boosted match damage.  Ghost Rider, Hela, and Carnage work well, providing green/red powers. The former two give a black outlet in the event that you don’t want to trigger Adam’s self-destruct damage, while the latter’s extra match and board shake can help collect AP and grab traps needed to heal and also benefit from boosted match damage. A slow but very fun pairing is Mister Sinister. Adam’s purple traps can fuel Sinister’s only active power. Doctor Octopus is also fun as he can provide blue/green coverage and his repeater can provide yet another source of healing for Adam to continue tanking.  Finally, Yellowjacket is a great partner as Adam can sustain tons of damage once Darren disappears into the shadows.

entrailbucket

Thinking about it, I'm not sure the rankings really need to change much.  Tier 1 guys are tier 1 with or without a boost, as are tier 3, by definition.  For the tier 2 guys, besides indicating that they're usable when boosted, is it worth putting them in order?  It might be an awful lot of work to do it.

Like, if x is boosted and y is not, then obviously x>y.  If x and y are both boosted, is it significant if x>y?  Especially if the groupings keep changing?  Would you need to wait for x and y to be boosted together to figure it out?

ThaRoadWarrior

Just popping in to say that boosting Killmonger during Chavez’s pvp is pretty awesome. He is one I was really curious about boosted.

HoundofShadow

Unless the dev mentioned in discord or whatever other channel that this is here to stay, I would think it's a test run. The reason for mentioning October is because by then, all 5* should have gotten their turn. 

Next, outside of their boost, you hardly even see them. How often do you see these two in shield sim or when they are not boosted? A 450 5*, when boosted during such week, will have their power, match damage, and healthpoint increased by ~2.5 times. Naturally, they would use them. Their healthpoint of ~150-180k is enough to be a deterrent. Typically, I'm looking at going through a total of ~ 300k to 400k worth of healthpoint per boosted team, compared to a total of 150-200k non-boosted. 

The point of rebalancing characters, at least here, is so that they become more "usable", depending on how you define it, regardless of whether they are boosted or not.  Besides, almost everyone here knows who are some of the worst 5* in the game. 

Mrcl25

entrailbucket said:

For the guys who actually are unusable in every case, a health and match damage buff won't cut it.  They'd need to completely redo their powers from scratch.  So if they plan to do this they might want multiple cycles to make sure.

If you add ap cost reduction for their powers along with health and match damage buff, that may be enough to make most of them at least useful when boosted.   

HoundofShadow

Two more points further solidify that dev don't have to waste their time rebalancing old characters:

1) Since 5* are grouped according to tier, as long as they are not meta even after their buff, they won't be used. Again, Archangel and Dr Ock are such examples. Only two of them got buff since 2018, as far as I can remember. 

2) The past few boosted 5* weeks prove that, even without rebalancing old characters, players will still use them as long as their boost is ridiculous. Silver Surfer, Phoenix, OML are such examples.

Therefore, if the dev are considering whether they should focus on buffing older 5*, read point 1 intensely and point 2 will be your answer. However, they could rebalance 1 or 2 older character per year to tie in with some big events, just like what they did with Dr Ock.

entrailbucket

They don't have to rebalance guys like Ock or Archangel...with the boost, they're playable.  The guys they should look at are the ones who are so bad they're unplayable even when boosted, like Starlord and (probably) Wasp and Iron Man.  I'm not sure about Banner...if they had remembered to boost The Hulk, he might have been less garbage-y.

TheRiddler

Daredevil217 said:

Is it time to look at buffing old 5s again? I think most players have been on this train, but from a developer standpoint it never really made sense. Pre-god boost, they could put significant time and resources into improving a character, but if the buff doesn’t vault them into the top 5 or counter-meta category, the character won’t get used much (and by definition there can only be 5 in the top 5 lol).

But now that we have the god-boost rotation, there seems to be three categories now: 1) always useful/meta, 2) useful when boosted, and 3) won’t use even if boosted.

Take Archangel. He received a small buff and was never used. However, on his god boost week I saw him used a TON (tier 2 character). That said, I don’t think I ran across a single Star-Lord, even with a 100 level boost (which would put him in tier 3).  It makes me wonder if he’d be a candidate for a boost to bring him at least into that second tier?  5s are so resource-intensive to collect and champ, I don’t think there should be any garbage in the top tier. 

Just spitballing, but do you all think that god boosts are the first step towards finally rebalancing some of the trash tier? 

Because the only reason he was given a "boost" was for optics in giving us something in return for nerfing Worthy Cap and Bishop. It wasn't intended to make him a usable character.

Daredevil217

HoundofShadow said:

Unless the dev mentioned in discord or whatever other channel that this is here to stay, I would think it's a test run. 

Based on what exactly? Can you name a time they decided to do a “test run” of something and not communicate that to the playerbase? History has shown that when they are “testing” something, they let us know. I don’t think we should assume either way, but going off history, my guess is it’s here to stay unless the backlash from players is big enough. And I haven’t seen the kind of complaints that accompanied Bishop, the dimming effect, or shardgate.

HoundofShadow said:

A 450 5*, when boosted during such week, will have their power, match damage, and healthpoint increased by ~2.5 times. Naturally, they would use them. Their healthpoint of ~150-180k is enough to be a deterrent. 

And yet I didn’t see Banner, Iron Man, Starlord (and probably others I’m forgetting) being used. Health and match damage on their own aren’t enough to make a character good (hi Knull!), they have to do SOMETHING other than just be a big damage sponge. Before it didn’t make sense to buff characters for the reasons you stated (unless meta, people won’t use them anyways). Now that we are seeing people actually use more than 2-5 characters, it could be worth re-examining rebalancing, since more characters are being used. 

TheRiddler

There may also simply be less of those characters out there champed because they aren't as useful.

HoundofShadow

This boost came out of nowhere. So, it can go either way. More importantly, this affects not only 5* players, but it also affect 2*, 3* and 4* players. Just because some 5* players are happy doesn't mean that the rest of the tiers are happy. If lower tier characters are complaining a lot about this, which we are unlikely to know, they will remove this temporarily. They are probably monitoring how it affects the lower tier players for the next 3-4 months. Remember they changed the cascade probability for pve due to new players' complaining even though most vets aren't complaining much.

I did see all three, albeit not as frequent as the others. Ultimately, top players will still choose the best 2 out of 4 options. That's why Thor/Archangel was a common team due to being almost a rainbow team.

Cannibalqueen

I think this has been a ‘test run’, and this week we are seeing the first tweaking to that run.  And in future weeks, might well see more tweaking.

I hope they keep the level of boost, I keep thinking and saying tho, that 4 is too many.  They should boost one or two to that level and just make a list of characters that won’t ever be boosted.  Because only having a couple would still make your team composition pretty important.  As is now, it’s too easy to just coast on ‘whoever is boosted’. 

And people will and it becomes tiresome I think.  For some weeks that means the god boost won’t play a big role.  Other weeks it will.  But it will strengthen the need to be shored up to meet either meta.

also just on topic of balancing, I think one of the best ones they’ve done is the Cho rebalance. 

It wasn’t drastic but it made a big difference for him.

edit: also I think it’s no coincidence that this all happened around the time they rolled out Wanda.  

DAZ0273

The Chavez PvP is skewing things a bit with Killmonger as I am seeing even non Champed versions of him being used, can't say the same for the others. If that continues the rest of this boost week then that possibly elevates his place in the rankings, if not then it is just that this PvP is made for him.

Maybe the question is why run Phoenix again? Is it random or are they monitoring her usage compared to newer options? I have seen more of her than possibly expected but is that just because of the boost or because a decent amount of players have her champed and possibly not others this week?

Kolence

DAZ0273 said:

The Chavez PvP is skewing things a bit with Killmonger as I am seeing even non Champed versions of him being used, can't say the same for the others. If that continues the rest of this boost week then that possibly elevates his place in the rankings, if not then it is just that this PvP is made for him.

Maybe the question is why run Phoenix again? Is it random or are they monitoring her usage compared to newer options? I have seen more of her than possibly expected but is that just because of the boost or because a decent amount of players have her champed and possibly not others this week?

Seeing Phoenix boosted again before the full 1st rotation was over (quite before) is kinda rekindling hopes of buffs, but I'd rather not hope too much only to get disappointed yet again...

More likely, she plays so so with another cascade-y character this week (Storm), and might be a substitute for Chavez as a crit maker together with Killmonger (a bit more farfetched theory). Or simply, she could have a nice synergy for one of the remaining pvp's, like KM + Chavez had. Probably not with Electro, but there's one more after it.

Another reason could be to see if she gets used and how much if a  newer 5-star with the same active colors (Red/Purple) is available.

entrailbucket

We don't actually know if there's going to be a "rotation." When they were going by release order you could expect them to roll through everyone then start over from omlpnx etc.  Now?  Who knows.

Omegased

TheRiddler said:

Because the only reason he was given a "boost" was for optics in giving us something in return for nerfing Worthy Cap and Bishop. It wasn't intended to make him a usable character.

I don't agree with that AT ALL. 

they wanted to start an airborne meta (Heimdall, AoA Mags), but to this date, it hasn't really worked. Archangel is the ONLY character at this stage that can effectively counter airbornes. my guess, is they made him a LITTLE better (and to be fair, his black which can STOP all ap generation could potentially be great) so he can counter.