Transitioning 4*->5*

Jacklag

I have had my feet firmly planted in 4* land for several months now and it's finally become boring. I softcap my 4*s unchampioned as to not increase my MMR above the minimum necessary, as not leveling any 5*s, even though many are fairly well covered. 

My gripe is that I also have all 4*s fully covered now and I don't have any reason to Target any 4* unless they are brand new, and even then it takes very few pulls to cover them.

I'm considering making the jump to 5* land, now that we no longer have the Bishop wall of old and the waves of Hulkoye tend to fane now that there are two proper counters (Wanda and Knulls). Although I don't have a Hulkoye of my own.

I have Apocalypse, Beta Ray Bill and Prof. X ready to be championed, plus 5*Carnage at a 1/5/1, Deadpool at 3/4/3, Heimdall at 4/3/1, Onslaught at 2/4/1, Thor at 5/3/1 and Old Man Daken at 4/2/0. A few less important 5*s are at one single cover. No Okoye and only 1 Black iHulk.

I could use some advice. Would I face too much struggle at 5*land, or could the benefits outweigh that?

Thanks all.

Sithforever

Apocalypse and BRB are pretty good incentives to make the jump as they are great for defense and offense. Polaris hopefully is at a higher level on your roster. Deadpool is solid as is Professor X although Deadpool is more of a 3rd wheel for simulator. Making the jump without Okoye champable is a bit rough but Apocalypse is definitely good. I'd say go for it as the benefits are good.

Sekilicious

I would probably be happy with Apoc and your undercovered 1/2 Thor for SCL10 PvE and could make due with BRB and Polaris in PvP. I would consider leaving Prof X unchamped for MMR purposes, but I have no clue how effective that strategy would be. 

jordanix

I only have 5 champed 5's, and two of them are BRB and Apoc. They are a solid team, and can get a ton of work done. I honestly think you'd be fine. That and an under covered 5Thor is my bread and butter.

entrailbucket

Can you be more specific about what you're worried about regarding matchmaking?  These concerns are often overblown -- I think there's some very old conventional wisdom floating around that doesn't really apply anymore.

Just as an aside, Knull is not a counter to anyone, and Scarlet Witch is fairly trivial to power through with Hulk and Okoye, so that shouldn't factor into anybody's decisionmaking.

shardwick

I would level up Apoc and BRB to the same level as your best 4* character and only play with them for a week in pvp and see how you like it. That way you're still getting 4* MMR so if you get bored then you can go back to just playing with your 4s and you won't regret making the jump to 5* land. I've seen guys that only had one champed 5*, then they champ a couple more, get overwhelmed with 5* MMR and then end up quitting the game.

entrailbucket

shardwick said:

I would level up Apoc and BRB to the same level as your best 4* character and only play with them for a week in pvp and see how you like it. That way you're still getting 4* MMR so if you get bored then you can go back to just playing with your 4s and you won't regret making the jump to 5* land. I've seen guys that only had one champed 5*, then they champ a couple more, get overwhelmed with 5* MMR and then end up quitting the game.

Now I'm really interested in this!  I've never heard about someone quitting because they moved to 5*.

A long time ago there used to be a major advantage gained in PvE from keeping your guys artificially low level, but I have never heard of anyone doing it for PvP purposes. 

What's the reasoning here?  Why would someone be overwhelmed with matchmaking when they move to 5*?  Isn't the ability to be matched with higher-point-value 5* teams an advantage?

KC_Hammer

I'm also curious about this. I've been avoiding transitioning for a long time now, at least a year, because I like the variety offered by the 4* tier. playing the same team all the time seems kinda boring, and i like figuring out viable teams from the boosted 4*s. Also it makes new 4*s useless and i like being able to use new characters. I have similar 5* ready to be champed as the OP but also iHulk and okoye. I was wondering if anyone thinks i am over thinking it, and should just make the jump. 

shardwick

entrailbucket said:

shardwick said:

I would level up Apoc and BRB to the same level as your best 4* character and only play with them for a week in pvp and see how you like it. That way you're still getting 4* MMR so if you get bored then you can go back to just playing with your 4s and you won't regret making the jump to 5* land. I've seen guys that only had one champed 5*, then they champ a couple more, get overwhelmed with 5* MMR and then end up quitting the game.

Now I'm really interested in this!  I've never heard about someone quitting because they moved to 5*.

A long time ago there used to be a major advantage gained in PvE from keeping your guys artificially low level, but I have never heard of anyone doing it for PvP purposes. 

What's the reasoning here?  Why would someone be overwhelmed with matchmaking when they move to 5*?  Isn't the ability to be matched with higher-point-value 5* teams an advantage?

They champed non-meta 5s then couldn't compete like they used to and then decided to quit. There are some "horror stories" on here too of guys pulling the trigger and moving to 5* land only to end up either outright quitting or they would delete the 5s that they champed so they could go back to 4* land. 

Waddles_Pines

entrailbucket said:

shardwick said:

I would level up Apoc and BRB to the same level as your best 4* character and only play with them for a week in pvp and see how you like it. That way you're still getting 4* MMR so if you get bored then you can go back to just playing with your 4s and you won't regret making the jump to 5* land. I've seen guys that only had one champed 5*, then they champ a couple more, get overwhelmed with 5* MMR and then end up quitting the game.

Now I'm really interested in this!  I've never heard about someone quitting because they moved to 5*.

A long time ago there used to be a major advantage gained in PvE from keeping your guys artificially low level, but I have never heard of anyone doing it for PvP purposes. 

What's the reasoning here?  Why would someone be overwhelmed with matchmaking when they move to 5*?  Isn't the ability to be matched with higher-point-value 5* teams an advantage?

Just because a team is 5* doesn't automatically mean they're worth more points.  I think it's more about the difference in total event points between you and your opponent, along with other things.  

If you transition with one or two 5 stars, then you're pretty much stuck using those characters over and over in PVP.  Plus your MMR will put you amongst people with baby champed 5* rosters, and unless you have meta characters, it'll be hard to win matches and you'll go through hp like water.  If you're fine with that, then there really isn't a drawback.  

entrailbucket

Right, 5* teams don't automatically have more points, the point value of a PvP fight is based on the difference between your points and their points.  5* teams *can* be worth a lot more points, though, because they're able to climb higher without shielding than 4* teams can.

This is going to vary a great deal based on when and where you play, but when you're playing with 4* how much are your fights worth?  At what score level are you unable to find a 40-point match?

I can understand players having issues if they've chosen to champion two very bad 5*, like Wasp and Starlord, for example, but I don't know of anyone who's actually done that. 

The game is pretty good about only showing you fights at levels where you should be able to win, so if you have 450s, 500+ teams will be hidden.  There are a quite a few tiers like this.

As far as team variety...yes, if you champion two 5* you will generally be using them all the time.  But when you champion more than two, you're going to be using your best two all the time.  That's the nature of this game. 

Does variety actually exist at the 4* level though?  When I see 4* teams it's always some combination of Polaris, Medusa, America Chavez, Rocket...all the powerful characters.  

Waddles_Pines

The game is good at keeping matches near your level, until you break MMR.  Once you get to a certain point total, you're going to see teams of much higher levels.  There a variety for the player in 4* land.  Sure you'll see a lot matches against meta teams, but with the boosted list, someone with a wide 4* roster can enjoy playing with other chars and be competitive.  By competitive I mean 700-900 range.  Sure, if I coordinated on Line or something I could get higher, but I spend waaaaaay too much time on this game as is

entrailbucket

If you have champion 5*, you *absolutely do not need to coordinate in any way* to go up to 1200 and well beyond that, depending on when and which slice you're playing in.

I suppose it comes down to how much you value the progression rewards between 700->1200 and the placement rewards that go along with them.

Jacklag

entrailbucket said:

Can you be more specific about what you're worried about regarding matchmaking?  

Sure. Currently 4*PvP is pretty rich. We see many different teams, even though three duals appear pretty often: Polaris+GRocket is the speed team, but it gets destroyed by Polaris+Sabertooth. 
The other common team is Polaris+Medusa, but that team is easy target for America Chavez+high match damage partner, usually Karnak. Which is easy to beat with Polaris+GRocket. A chisel for every rock.

But for what I read, 5* PvP is dominated by Hulkoye teams and there is nothing else to do but drag-on fights with BRB+Kitty (which I have at a 3/0/1, btw).

So that's basically it, I fear making the transition would make PvP less fun.

Jacklag

entrailbucket said:

This is going to vary a great deal based on when and where you play, but when you're playing with 4* how much are your fights worth? At what score level are you unable to find a 40-point match?

It varies a lot. Early in an event opponents are worth less than 20 points, but they are pretty easy to beat cause it's usually GRocket+3*Thanos or 4*Juggernaut+GRocket. Later on I get an average of 33 points. Retaliation matches are often the most valuable, I've seen them go as high as 61 pts.

Jacklag

entrailbucket said:

I suppose it comes down to how much you value the progression rewards between 700->1200 and the placement rewards that go along with them.

Right, that is a factor indeed. There's no 5*Rewards did progression in PvP, only placement. I constantly get 50 shards for the featured 5* by finishing in top 100. Don't now if I would get that paying against 5* metas

entrailbucket

Jacklag said:

entrailbucket said:

Can you be more specific about what you're worried about regarding matchmaking?  

Sure. Currently 4*PvP is pretty rich. We see many different teams, even though three duals appear pretty often: Polaris+GRocket is the speed team, but it gets destroyed by Polaris+Sabertooth. 
The other common team is Polaris+Medusa, but that team is easy target for America Chavez+high match damage partner, usually Karnak. Which is easy to beat with Polaris+GRocket. A chisel for every rock.

But for what I read, 5* PvP is dominated by Hulkoye teams and there is nothing else to do but drag-on fights with BRB+Kitty (which I have at a 3/0/1, btw).

So that's basically it, I fear making the transition would make PvP less fun.

5* PvP is...not this. 

Actually, I can state that in a better way: competitive PvP is not this and has never been this. 

When I was a 3* player, back when 3* were the top tier, everyone used the same 3* team.  When I was a 4* player, everyone used the same 4* team.  Heck, when 2* were the top tier, we all used the same 2* team.  Competitive 5* players now basically all use the same team. 

There is always some very small degree of variation but mostly, if you're trying to win, and you can only use two characters, there is no reason to ever use anyone besides the best two characters.

The tradeoff is that if you compete you get much better rewards, but those rewards are geared toward getting more 5*.


Personally, I still think competitive MPQ PvP is one of the most fun games I've ever played, and it's never had anything to do with diversity of opponents because we've never had that. 

It's about timing your climb, figuring out when to move and how much, strategically attacking your opponents at the right times, and most of all, being as fast as possible at the match-3 part of the game.  Pvp at the highest level is very dumb and simple, but also incredibly complicated, with a huge amount of strategy, timing, and skill.

shardwick

Jacklag said:

entrailbucket said:

Can you be more specific about what you're worried about regarding matchmaking?  

Sure. Currently 4*PvP is pretty rich. We see many different teams, even though three duals appear pretty often: Polaris+GRocket is the speed team, but it gets destroyed by Polaris+Sabertooth. 
The other common team is Polaris+Medusa, but that team is easy target for America Chavez+high match damage partner, usually Karnak. Which is easy to beat with Polaris+GRocket. A chisel for every rock.

But for what I read, 5* PvP is dominated by Hulkoye teams and there is nothing else to do but drag-on fights with BRB+Kitty (which I have at a 3/0/1, btw).

So that's basically it, I fear making the transition would make PvP less fun.

I'm a 5* player with fifteen baby champed 5s and I will say that I really don't see a lot of BRB/Kitty teams anymore unless I'm using Hulkoye. You will see a lot of Hulkoyes and BRB/Polaris teams though, and I suspect that once Knull goes into tokens more people will be pulling their hoards to get Colossus and Switch champed and then you'd see more of them in fights. 

entrailbucket

Jacklag said:

entrailbucket said:

This is going to vary a great deal based on when and where you play, but when you're playing with 4* how much are your fights worth? At what score level are you unable to find a 40-point match?

It varies a lot. Early in an event opponents are worth less than 20 points, but they are pretty easy to beat cause it's usually GRocket+3*Thanos or 4*Juggernaut+GRocket. Later on I get an average of 33 points. Retaliation matches are often the most valuable, I've seen them go as high as 61 pts.

The points you earn for a fight are related to your score and your opponent's score before you attack.  40 points means you and your opponent have roughly the same score, say you're both at 600 points.  Anything less means they have less points than you.  The retaliation is the inverse of what you earned for the victory.

You're seeing relatively low point matches because the game thinks you can't beat the players who have higher points, probably because they are 5* players.

You can earn up to 75 points for a match -- these are fairly common among 5* players, depending on the relative scores and amount of unshielded players at the time.

entrailbucket

Jacklag said:

entrailbucket said:

I suppose it comes down to how much you value the progression rewards between 700->1200 and the placement rewards that go along with them.

Right, that is a factor indeed. There's no 5*Rewards did progression in PvP, only placement. I constantly get 50 shards for the featured 5* by finishing in top 100. Don't now if I would get that paying against 5* metas

You can test out what your placement would look like in cl10 by choosing cl10 (assuming you're eligible).  The clearance level you choose does not affect matchmaking in any way, just the placement rankings.

HoundofShadow

BRB/Apocalypse/Prof X are good. You can work on Thor next. He's in good shape @ 5/3/1. Also, how's Kitty? I don't see her being mentioned.

The advantage of jumping into 5* land is fewer wins needed to hit 1200 points or  better placement (T25) in SCL 10. In 4* land, it's highly unlikely that you can hit 1200 point. f your timing is good, you can do it in about 22 wins in competitive slices as 5* players, without coordinating, in a single sitting. I jumped into 5* land not too long ago and the fear of iHulkoye is overblown. They can be hunted down quickly with BRB/Polaris + 4 blue APs.

As for your 4* sitting useless after being a 5* player, I use my 4* in SHIELD Simulator. My 5* acts as a meat shield to protect my 4* and they work together to take down full fledged 5* teams. I play competitively in PvEs and play quickly in PvPs, so I hardly use them. 


It seems like you fallen into the trap of softcapping your 4* as well. PvPs aren't as scary as you think. What happened to those players is that they don't know how pvps work. Lack of knowledge about how to solve problems and doing the same thing over and over again are a good recipe for increased frustration and unnecessary fear.

For the time being, you might want to hear how players react to additional new meta after Knull enters LTs. I'm talking about more 5* Wanda/Colossus teams in pvps. Currently, there isn't a lot of this team because they are waiting for Sighclops to move out of Latest. I think they might give your Apocalypse/BRB more trouble than iHulkoye.


Alternatively, you want to champ your 4* so that you can claim your favourite 5* shards from Milestones Rewards. I think you can get at least 3000 worth of 5* shards. If you do this, you can target Kitty, Okoye or Thor. Remember to check who you favourited before claiming.