How Often Should We Shake the 5* Meta?

helix72

I've seen a lot of threads discussing characters, and frustrations on how some of the new ones in particular stink (I'm looking into your one visor, Sighclops aka Geordi from STTNG) and will be nothing more than glorified trophies. That got me to thinking of two ways to shake the meta:

1) Introduce new characters (or buff old ones) whose abilities and stats justify using them instead of the current dirty half dozen (Okoye, iHulk, Apoc, BRB, Kitty, Thor). Okay, elite 8 if you're a PX + Onslotty machine lover. This is obviously permanent (or at least until the next meta gets released/buffed).

2) Start boosting more 5*s per week including having them be boosted for PvP. This is obviously temporary and changes from week to week.

So two questions, really:

1) Which of these ideas (if any) do you prefer? Or maybe you like them both?
2) What is the right frequency to shake the meta? Option 2 rotates every week but if you like option 1, how often do you want a new meta toon introduced (assume we stay on our current pace of 1 per month)?

I look forward to reading people's thoughts.

KGB

Please never boost old 5* until they are meta. I don't mind minor tweaks but never to the point of making them meta (or even 2nd tier). The reason is they are impossible to obtain esp if you don't find them in a store (which with 50 characters and 2 per new release store means more than a year between them appearing in a store). Any character pre-Thor should be irrelevant as that's now going on 4 years ago.

Yes to introducing new characters or new mechanics. There are plenty of new mechanics (or missing mechancs at the 5* level like Quakes AoE negation) that would shake things up. Stuff like punishing enemies for stealing/destruction of AP (eg 1K damage per AP stolen or destroyed), punishing enemies for cascades (eg each successive cascade beyond the initial match 3 could do 1K, 2K, 4K, 8K, 16K and so on enemy damage)

Yes to boosts. Problem is figuring out how much boost level to give. 4* at 100 levels is too much but 30 levels might make some characters more relevant.

KGB

Cannibalqueen

I’ve been wanting them to do weekly boosts on classic 5*s for a while now.  I think there’s enough characters now to at least add one character each cycle.

The thing I miss most from 4* land is the variety from week to week, because the teams I used would very often change based on who was boosted that cycle.  I don’t play at any super competitive level, I mean often I just coast by with metas, but every other day or so, I enjoy slowing down and messing around a little.  It would add a lot of fun for me.

because as is now, it feels like only once a year or so we get to dust off someone like Daredevil and take em for a ride boosted.  

But yeah like suggested above, it shouldn’t be as much of a boost as characters get when they are essential. Like right now I am seeing 5* Chuck is getting a 110 level essential boost and then Yellowjacket gets 90 just for being new.  So I think 30 is maybe too low, I would say maybe 50 or 60, so it still felt substantial, and even if you had a 10 covered character sitting at 405, you could get some feel for what it would be like to play them champed.

tonypq

It certainly can get boring plowing through content with the same old slew of meta 5s we currently have. Yes of course anyone can choose to mix things up and use other characters, but unless you want to extend how long you play this already monotonous grind fest of a game you'll likely roll with any metas you have to speed up the clears. Especially if playing to complete for placement. 

I would certainly like to see them buff older 5s, absolutely no reason why they haven't already if they were going to allow the kind of rapid power creep we see today from new 5s compared to the older ones. I don't really think making any of the older 5s meta is a great idea, with how hard the classics are to finish of if you missed them in LLs or previous special stores. Although I have been an advocate of a new classic store just for 5s since we have so many characters now and more coming at a fast pace. 

In the current state I guess I'd prefer more meta characters as new releases, 3 a year maybe. It doesn't always even have to be meta but simply a well designed character you'll actually enjoy playing and not feel you're at a massive disadvantage using because they were trash from day one release. Or release some 5s with abilities that are clear counters to the current metas. I don't know if that makes the state of the game any healthier either as most will either use one meta or their counter.

I think buffing older 5s high to make them more effective could be a decent way to go, at least for short term. To me it feels like D3 painted themselves in a corner. Allowing too much power creep and too fast. Not really developing characters to build upon team affiliations much. Or as in other games you might have clear designed roles different characters can have, like a tank, damage, controller, support. Had they designed characters more along roles to fill they may have had more synergy and less characters being obsolete collecting dust. At this point the game is a mess as is and is probably something D3 isn't willing to seriously try and clean up. For as long as this game has been out they can can just cruise on down the road with the Marvel license and still do ok. 

To me it seems like as long as this game has been out there should be much more to do. Compared to a lot of other games it doesn't seem like MPQ is very robust in things to do. The lack of content and the same old, tired, PVE/PVP events we've grinded for years, it's sickening. I think we're all insane to keep playing this game, but for many of us it's a go to game even with the large number if major issues that exist currently. 

Ares76

There actually was a PvP this week that had 9 boosted five-stars including Kitty. They were boosted by 15 levels but it seemed to mee that it hadn't much impact on the player's choosing other options than Okoye/iHulk. One of the boosted chars which I saw a bit more frequently was Jessics Jones who used to be a meta when she was released...but even with her boost she didn't scare me and I beat her several times with ease. 

Theghouse

I posted a bit about this in another thread, here's a copy paste of my ideas there and I'll elaborate more below:

There is no game on the planet with this many strategy options where every single option is - or even can be for that matter - equally impactful on the top metagame.

To purposefully affect the meta with each new character, they must develop each character to either directly counter the previous meta or completely overshadow it.  But purposefully designing each brand new character this way is consciously choosing to render old content obsolete. The game would become pay-to-win for the newest and best content.  So then who would pay for the newest and best, with the next new character who is once again designed to be the best making your purchase immediately obsolete?  Intentionally rewriting the meta with each new release would be the one thing that actually completely destroys the game.  So what else can be done?

Take for example magic the gathering card game, which I think is a great comparison to the current climate of MPQ.

In certain formats which allow all sets ever made to be played, magic's meta is dominated by older cards many of which still have no rivals nor contemporary equals.  There is a small list of cards with game-shattering abilities or combos that are completely banned (where MPQ nerfs).  In this format literally thousands of new cards can be printed before even a single one has an effect on the top meta.  I would say this is most comparable to the way the MPQ meta works now.  But in magic this format plays second fiddle to standard format.

In magic's standard format you may only build your deck using the latest released sets.  This forces players to pick up the new cards and forces them to give up the old.  While the sets are constantly changing, every top player pretty much plays a version of one of a handful of primary deck designs that make up the top meta in the current set pairing.  So even with this forced rotation of content that forces players to constantly buy the newest cards and never miss a new set to stay afloat in the game, there is still an overwhelming lack of variety at the top of competition.  The closest we get to this forced adoption of new content in MPQ is new character boosts and increased PVE essential rotation of Latests.  I would hate to see MPQ to go further down this road by further restricting character usage on more than the handful of essential nodes, but I think there are other ideas here.

I think the addition of puzzle game modes could be the future of this game.  I think it can and should be expanded to versus play.  Imagine if every event had an alternate win condition.  Sure you could still smash your opponent into pulp, but you could also win by being the first to generate 25 total red AP, or being the first to create 12 total friendly trap tiles, or being the first team to have characters go airborne or invisible for 8 turn counts.  And each of the recent 5* has utility in these areas.  Or you might LOSE if you're the first team to destroy 15 total green tiles, or LOSE if you're the first team to break more than 10 total tiles using powers, or you LOSE if you're the first team to control 12 or more SAP tiles simultaneously.  The current meta is a liability under these conditions, and even if they can be mitigated through careful player play, they would destroy themselves on AI defense. 

The environmental tile idea, with adaptations so that each team gets tiles that go off on their turn, could be interesting to reintroduce with this concept.  Or imagine each team starts with a boss style Apoc horseman tile that can only be destroyed by satisfying it's condition.  The AI might be hindered without being able to actively pursue this more-complex type of secondary challenge, but still something to think about.

If you want more characters to affect the meta, the answer is NOT demanding a constant stream of bigger-faster-better characters, it is more objectives.  If a match gives you something to pursue or avoid other than quickly smashing your enemy before being smashed yourself, then you can move beyond the stagnant big-fast-damage meta.

Simply put, the devs cannot purposefully create characters that takeover the current meta.

In a game with close to 200 character options in the top 2 tiers, you cannot expect more than handful from each tier to be the best when the only objective is smash the other team as quickly as possible without getting smashed yourself.  That sole objective means only powers which make more AP, boost more damage, or do more boostable damage faster than the current options will find a place in the offensive meta.  In the defensive meta, take so long to defeat it's not worth it or do so much damage it's not worth it will continue to be king. 

The meta is defined by the teams that allow you to achieve the victory conditions most quickly, easily, and reliably.  Most people are approaching this conversation with the focus on the "quickly, easily, and reliably", when instead the conversation should be on the victory conditions.

acescracked

I'd like.to see 4*s get a bigger boost. I like messing with my 370s but even boosted to 479 sometimes hard to win matches. Another 30 to 50 levels would be nice.

As far as 5* characters, the forum kinda votes a character horrible or nerf it. Not alot of in between around here.

Michael1957

What’s the point of making new metas when that’s all 95% of players use . Everyone used Bishop until he was castrated, now those exact same players won’t give him the time of day . There’s no point in making new metas if that’s all players want to use , you might as well just keep the status quo and release dull characters that everyone hates . Players could not care less who gets introduced, all they care about is their abilities and “ how do they work with Okoye “. 

HoundofShadow

I think every 9 months to 15 months would be good. Not every players can champ new 5* before they rotate out of LTs.  Then, 3 to 4 months later, include them in special cp store again.

If by shaking up metas means coming up with anti-meta character that can also shift the meta to another playstyle, I think it's fine. We still have a lot of abilities and playstyles that have not taken off yet in 5* land. For example, repeaters, charged tiles, trap tiles, airborne, fortification, team revive, ap destruction (think She-Hulk).

BlackBoltRocks

While I would definitely love to see old 5* buffed, the only reason I'm hesitant for that to happen is because a number of them are the opponents in CL10 Challenge nodes. Characters like Goblin are manageable because he has low match damage and his Purple costs 10, although once he gets 8 Black AP you better stun him or you're doomed. We just got reminded how irritating 5* Natasha is in that node with 5* Strange and America. Can you imagine going up against the equivalent of lv650 iHulks, Apocalypses, Bills every other PvE? The recent Simulator Challenge node with Prof X/Iceman/Havok was no joke. At the most buff their match damage and maaaybe reduce AP costs by 1 or 2, akin to what they did with Archangel, but leave everything else as it is.

And yes, a weekly boosted list of 5* would be very welcome and long overdue at this point. We have 50+ 5*; I don't see why we can't get 4 or 5 of them boosted every week. For those who have patchwork 5*, when they do have a boosted 5* it would allow them to compete in CL9 and CL10. And for those of us who have many champed 5*, it gives us options besides the usual boring few. For instance, having someone like IM46 or Phoenix boosted would make them a great third for Thorpocalypse. A boosted Storm or Gambit would help greatly in that infamous Inhuman node in HoD. Boosted Daredevil would be a great tank. Having a handful of 5* boosted every week would greatly improve gameplay.

Bad

I would say this cyclops was made for make classics able to play. Still match damage is not everything and powers should went rebalanced too.
Some classics every month could be rebalanced. Here is my suggestion.
3  classics rebalanced at the end of each month. The rebalance could focus on affiliations or create a special sinergy with characters running on  LL. Then a special store featuring them will be released with exclusive tokens for pulling them that could be earned playing events all month. Optionally exclusive cps for pulling them too.
That could add new valuable rewards and being an incentive to play more without changing the releasing design.
And classics could have a chance to create modern metas.

Daredevil217

Boost old 5s? I guess, but I doubt it’ll shake up the meta. We’ve seen many PvP events where old 5s are boosted but people still break out their Gritty and Hulkoye and Thorpoc because they are STILL better options than an Iron Man or Cap with 50 levels on them. So... do it or don’t but I doubt it makes a difference. 

Buff old 5s? Yes! Absolutely. Make them worth playing even without the boosts. Not everyone needs to have the damage/AP ratio of an Apocalypse. For most characters, their kits are fine but health, match damage, AP costs, ability damage and repeater/CD length/fortification should be buffed. Others (Banner/Wasp/Kingpin/Iron Man) could use reworks. For those characters you could introduce counter-meta mechanics into their kits that allow them to have a place at the table. BSSM is a great example. For those saying “too hard to get”, you don’t need him at 550. Just 5 purple covers and he can nullify strikes 100%.  

Rebalance. Do a welcome to shield event. Put them in a special store and have events where we can win tokens to said store. Feature them in PVE so you can get 250 shards (plus whatever for placement). Make each rebalance a “celebration” that the players get excited about. Ideally one rebalance per season. And the character should be featured in 3 special stores in a row before they “rotate out” similar to latest legends. Rebalanced Wasp, Banner, Kingpin store runs for a couple weeks. Then next month rebalanced Banner/Kingpin/Natasha. Next month rebalanced Kingpin/Natasha/Iron Man. And so on...  this gives you three months to decide if you want the character and collect resources to try and get them. 

Akoni

I'm fine with buffing old characters, however, I believe that those are short term solutions that contribute to power creep. Sure, buffing one or two characters every once and awhile can be good, but eventually all of that creep adds up.

I am very in favor of releasing new characters that work well with and support the older ones. Imagine if Alistair Smythe was released and worked as well with Kingpin as IHulk does with Okoye. Just like that, Kingpin becomes meta overnight. Okay, maybe not. The point is there are so many opportunities available that only employing one method is ludicrous. 

My suggestions are:

1. Buff characters that are pathetically subpar,
2. Re-balance characters that are probably fine, but have cost-benefit issues, and
3. Include characters in future releases that provide support for one or more characters currently in the game.

Doing a small amount of each of those can have a major impact on the game.

KGB

Daredevil217 said:

Buff old 5s? Yes! Absolutely. Make them worth playing even without the boosts. Not everyone needs to have the damage/AP ratio of an Apocalypse. For most characters, their kits are fine but health, match damage, AP costs, ability damage and repeater/CD length/fortification should be buffed. Others (Banner/Wasp/Kingpin/Iron Man) could use reworks. For those characters you could introduce counter-meta mechanics into their kits that allow them to have a place at the table. BSSM is a great example. For those saying “too hard to get”, you don’t need him at 550. Just 5 purple covers and he can nullify strikes 100%.  

Rebalance. Do a welcome to shield event. Put them in a special store and have events where we can win tokens to said store. Feature them in PVE so you can get 250 shards (plus whatever for placement). Make each rebalance a “celebration” that the players get excited about. Ideally one rebalance per season. And the character should be featured in 3 special stores in a row before they “rotate out” similar to latest legends. Rebalanced Wasp, Banner, Kingpin store runs for a couple weeks. Then next month rebalanced Banner/Kingpin/Natasha. Next month rebalanced Kingpin/Natasha/Iron Man. And so on...  this gives you three months to decide if you want the character and collect resources to try and get them. 

Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.

If we need reworks of old characters, just release new versions of them like how we have multiple Spiderman and Cap at the 5* level. Everything you said above just hugely benefits older vet rosters at the expense of newer ones because they'd get new relevant characters on day 1. But brand new releases benefits everyone the same (ie all start with 0 covers).

Also just a single PvE or two doesn't give enough shards to help. Nor does a special store that runs for 2 weeks unless you happen to be swimming in CP to cover lots of old characters who get buffed. They'd have to put the character back into latest legends for 3 months so newer players would have any chance to acquire 13 or more covers if they only have a handful now. That would mean slowing the release train which they won't do or pushing new characters out of latest even sooner than they do now to make way for older buffs (that would cause the Forum to explode).

On the other hand a brand new character release requires nothing special since that happens now.

KGB

Akoni

@KGB They wouldn't put them back in latest legends. They would just open up a special store for them.

KGB

@Akoni, Yes but that store would have to accept LT's in addition to CP's and last for 3 months (typical time a character spends in latest). Otherwise you can't cover anyone as we know now how hard it is to keep up with the new releases using CP + LT's.

KGB

Bad

For that reason I said exclusive cps for them, for to not interfere with the current game release. 
Another point is that before it wasnt so easy to champ 5* as it is now. They were on LL more time, of course, but without the shards and scl10, and LL tokens were not so often obtained as now. Except logan, who all vets dipped on him, Im usually seeing baby champeds classic 5*s.

Now if affiliations were more developed, that could pass for a good rebalance:
I.e: passive affiliation: if BW 5 is teamed with yelena or HE, she gains -3AP to all her powers and the others 2 gain 2000 bonus damage on each power.
And at the same time if HE gains another effect if she is on the team,  that sinergy could be used on pvp without having to boost or buff them a lot.

tonypq

At this point I say just make every darn new release meta and earth shattering. Throw caution out the window and just let every character be nuts over the top lol. If you missed Okoye/Thort/Kitty/Apoc/BRB/Ihulk and whoever else then that's fine. Just over tune all future releases then those with current metas can keep using them and those new to 5 land can hop in whenever and get a trio of 5s on roids. Or those who are sick of using the current metas can liven up their roster with any of these new juiced 5s. 

Taganov

At least annually. Semi-annual would be nice. I don't know. It would be nice to have *something* to look forward to.

Michael1957

KGB said:

@Akoni, Yes but that store would have to accept LT's in addition to CP's and last for 3 months (typical time a character spends in latest). Otherwise you can't cover anyone as we know now how hard it is to keep up with the new releases using CP + LT's.

KGB

I’ve been champing every new released 5* since getting to SCL 10 in July , easily . And the majority of players think I’m clueless how to play the game , so I don’t see what the problem is for all the people smarter than me .

KGB

@Michael1957 Are you champing each new release JUST with CP or are you using LT's + CP? My point is that it's impossible with just CP.

KGB