Power creep, thy name is the 5* tier

13

Comments

  • BlackBoltRocks
    BlackBoltRocks Posts: 1,181 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2020
    At the very least adjust the match damage of the earlier 5* to match the current ones. When those first few 5* were released, they were the only ones in the game, and a match damage of ~600 was gamebreaking. Remember when Surfer easily took out Teen Jean, Hulkbuster and C4rnage on his own? Now we currently have Mags at 922, and it won't be long before we see a 5* with 1000+ match damage. They did it for Archangel; why can't they do it for other 5*? For example, Phoenix's match damage should be on par with Adam Warlock's, and that would make her Purple even more devastating. Likewise the aforementioned Surfer, Black Bolt, Goblin, maybe even BSSM. It's sad to see cosmic beings like Phoenix, Surfer and Bolt having 550, 586 and 592 damage respectively, and then you see their fellow cosmic being Adam having 866, or even Havok at 805. And then there's Killmonger, a normal human being by most accounts, having 879, on par with Apocalypse.

    Usual disclaimer: yes, I know MPQ in-game strength, rarity etc has nothing to do with their usually accepted strength in Marvel comics canon. It's just unfortunate that a particular 5*'s match damage is determined by the time they were released, whether it was 2015 or 2020.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    "Power Creep" has existed throughout our life. The main difference is that we call them by different names like advance in  technology, new and improved, an upgrade etc. When you compare a mobile phone or an automobile that was released 5 years ago and one that was released a few months ago, you will find "Power Creep". 

    I find that power creep in games is a natural process that reflects what actually happens in our life. There are three directions things can go: get better over time, get worse over time or stay stagnant (like those tiers below 5*). To the players standardising the match damage for all 5* is an easy process. To the dev, it's something that need to be balanced and timed well. Afterall, they have formulas that they use for match damage and power damage.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,386 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m guessing Archangel got the treatment because of Magneto and the expectation we were going to have a bunch of people using him. So far it doesn’t look like that is going to happen though.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    Recent releases Heimdall , Magneto, and upcoming Throg all have airbourne powers and Elsa has anti-airbourne along with the buffed Archangel. Guess going airbourne is a major power design for the current Dev team.
  • Captain_Carlman
    Captain_Carlman Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
    MadScientist said:
    Get rid of the team cap / iron man entirely and change im46's red to "Avengers".
    Quoting this for the next page.  This is a great idea.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Power creep is fine, and while I hope for almost complete rebalances of older characters even that doesn't happen at least up there match damage.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Phoenix and hulk are the 5's that irk me because they are so gimmick, and bad... but such strong  and also popular characters.

    5 hulk wouldn't be terrible with some tweaks, and 5 Phoenix either. 
  • ComputersCookingCats
    ComputersCookingCats Posts: 6 Just Dropped In
    FWIW, I'm only starting to break into 5* land, but I think that graph illustrates something I've been feeling for a while: they need to drastically slow down the release of new characters and spend some time rebalancing old ones.

    Dilution is an increasing problem and so is the plethora of "meh-tier" characters. You can't really take a big step back and make new characters unappealing, so there is a desire to make new characters somewhat on-par or better than the current meta.

    Slowing down new releases and retooling old characters would help alleviate both those issues. But that's just my armchair-analyst opinion.
  • Cannibalqueen
    Cannibalqueen Posts: 191 Tile Toppler
    I think they should start boosting one classic 5* for every event.  

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    ComputersCookingCats said:
    FWIW, I'm only starting to break into 5* land, but I think that graph illustrates something I've been feeling for a while: they need to drastically slow down the release of new characters and spend some time rebalancing old ones.

    Dilution is an increasing problem and so is the plethora of "meh-tier" characters. You can't really take a big step back and make new characters unappealing, so there is a desire to make new characters somewhat on-par or better than the current meta.

    Slowing down new releases and retooling old characters would help alleviate both those issues. But that's just my armchair-analyst opinion.
    They had something really nice going when they updated a couple characters from each tier, every season. It made the seasons actually feel exciting. They should bring that back.
  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,157 Chairperson of the Boards
    ComputersCookingCats said:

    Slowing down new releases and retooling old characters would help alleviate both those issues. But that's just my armchair-analyst opinion.
    if they do that (and I agree with you 100% that they should), treat the rebalances as a new release.  Make a special event for them.  Make a special vault for them.  Heck, maybe even put them in LT for a while.
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    I honestly think power creep is the devs attempt to solve for dilution. It's getting more and more difficult to get the classic characters or their feeders, so the alternative solution is to gradually make them obsolete. The newer 5's are stronger and stronger and fed by the newer 4*s.
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    sambrookjm said:
    ComputersCookingCats said:

    Slowing down new releases and retooling old characters would help alleviate both those issues. But that's just my armchair-analyst opinion.
    if they do that (and I agree with you 100% that they should), treat the rebalances as a new release.  Make a special event for them.  Make a special vault for them.  Heck, maybe even put them in LT for a while.

    Precisely this. Rebalance some of those first generation 5s, treat them as new releases and you'll have people spending to chase them. Also, you'll generate some good will. That tends to open my wallet, but I might not be the norm.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    I guess the thing is where does it stop?

    There are about 2-7 characters *5 land that NEED a rework. And another couple or so that need slight tweaks...

    But it gets to a point where you start double working yourself and or you are tweaking characters all the time which opens up a bigger can of worms potentially.

    Same with 4's. Truthfully 4's are so varied and good now that it's almost not worth rebalancing them where at one point it very much was. The ones that are meh, aren't terrible like some of the 5's.






  • AXP_isme
    AXP_isme Posts: 809 Critical Contributor
    thedarkphoenix said:
    I guess the thing is where does it stop?

    <snip>

    Same with 4's. Truthfully 4's are so varied and good now that it's almost not worth rebalancing them where at one point it very much was. The ones that are meh, aren't terrible like some of the 5's.

    Talos and Emma Frost are over here. They say "Hi!". 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Between Talos and Emma Frost, Emma Frost has to be the first in line. I find Talos an interesting character to use and his best partner is America Chavez: rainbow coverage, a long stun, ap destroy and ap steal. There's a logical step to using Talos, and it's not difficult to use him. These two sucks because they don't have active abilities that deal heavy damages, like those red or green abilities.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 723 Critical Contributor
    Emma sucks because her main goal is to keep alive her repeaters who, like 5* Wasp Swarm tiles, are easily destroyed/removed/whatever.
    Now, if she had her purple repetear staying let say 4 turns and is unremovable that would make her viable options against Cardusa and Polaris. Simple as that.
    Of course, just an example.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    emma and talos being the weaker 4 are pretty good examples of why the 4's don't really "need" to be touched, and like mentioned out of those 2 talos can be interesting and useful and emma well... hopefully you like the character lol.


  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 723 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2020
    thedarkphoenix said:
    emma and talos being the weaker 4 are pretty good examples of why the 4's don't really "need" to be touched, and like mentioned out of those 2 talos can be interesting and useful and emma well... hopefully you like the character lol.



    Everything what weakest 4*s need is a little buff. Not making them "powerfull" or completly rework or whatever. Some characters has to weaker. Like is enything wrong with X-23? No. She is not bad not meta too. Just mediocre. Does she needs some tweaks? Not likely. Like many others. But the weakest need - just to give them some niche.  Many just need AP cost lowering. For example:
    Elektra's a purple could convert all types of special tiles (attack, strike, protect; maybe also repeaters and CD) at 3 covers and all existing at 5 covers. No other changes. That wouldnt make her much stronger yet would create two viable builds: 3/5/5 and 5/3/5.
    Spider-Woman needs lowering Red cost from 14 to 10 et max. Maybe even lower.
    That's all what we need. Not everbody has to be "awesome".

    I cant speak for 5* as I do not play them yet and do know posses knowledge what needs what.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    All gacha games follow the same pattern, even more if they are running so many years. Initially the skills were simple, and newest ones are tricky and needing of play or study them to fully understand. That is just natural.
    What makes this game different is that it is more easy to obtain regularly news 5* playing than spending money(at least until the new 5* appeared on HT last year. Despite not being easy to get it).
    Some games rebalance older ones at make them good to some point. Exactly the point to be a bit easier to win battles and never being a good defense to a new released one.
    Right now useful classic 5*s are those who play a supporting role.
    In my case rebalancing older classics it doesnt matter to me as I dont own any champed.
    It would be positive some small tweak indeed, like raising them 30 levels according to their data release.
    Strangely on 4* tier is not happening power creep, and the strategy chosen is featuring them on shards often, to the point were it is posible to raise them pretty fast to level 300.
    Right now the strategy seems to make some of the new 4* more meta than 5*.
    They will have their reasons, as always. 

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