Power creep, thy name is the 5* tier

Polares

I think it is kinda a necessary evil to have the new 5s be a bit stronger than the old ones BUT I think every year old 5s could be brought a bit closer to new releases (not at the same level, but close), so they could be more useful, instead of just sitting there unused other than when they are fetured.

I said it in the past but I think at this stage the game could stop releasing 4s, and then do a rework 5 , new 5 cadence, with 3 Legendary stores (new, reworked, classic). Reworks, could be full reworks, like what Banner or Wasp need, or just bring some chars like Spiderman (PP) or Phoenix to current numbers.

PiMacleod

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I loved Original Flavor doc oc, the rebalance lost the fun of his convoluted insta win. And in fact, his very original flavor where he insta won wave nodes was even better, but that got nerfed like immediately. I think his ability to take turns while stunned (pre rebalance) was novel, but it went away before I had that color for him. Mine isn’t anywhere close to champed still though.

IM46 I don’t have much experience with though - mine is pretty lame at 3/2/2.

I would say Heimdall and Onslaught are the correct amount of convolution: they have a good passive that can benefit from other characters with an active that requires/allows you to think about where you drop it.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!    ...and for that matter, MY ROSTER TOO!!  My IM isn't done, and well, neither is my Doc Ock, but I feel/felt the same exact way about Doc.  

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I loved Original Flavor doc oc, the rebalance lost the fun of his convoluted insta win. And in fact, his very original flavor where he insta won wave nodes was even better, but that got nerfed like immediately. I think his ability to take turns while stunned (pre rebalance) was novel, but it went away before I had that color for him. Mine isn’t anywhere close to champed still though.

IM46 I don’t have much experience with though - mine is pretty lame at 3/2/2.

I would say Heimdall and Onslaught are the correct amount of convolution: they have a good passive that can benefit from other characters with an active that requires/allows you to think about where you drop it.

I have a 7/0/0 IM46 with a 4* Arc Reactor which is useless and so  on Hulkbuster as the game likes a good troll. And even at 5 in red with IM team based makeup he hits like a pillow fight. Iron Man is always updating his armour, he should not be this far lagging behind. They should give him a passive - if any character released shall have higher match damage and health, Iron Man automatically updated his armour to match!

I also enjoyed original Ock, the whole thing was just a great representation of  a typical supervillain plan. 

Polares

IM46 is a weird char. They did that Team IM thing for his red, that seriously hurts that power. With two teamIM in the team it was a nuke comparable to GED or GG, but when he is on his own it is pretty bad. His blue is good when red is not the other teams stronger color and yellow is a bit meh. He had amazing match damage and life when released but now... not even close. Before Gambit I used to play him with Thanos and BP (teamIM) in sim, and he was decent in that team (full color coverage), but now he is pretty useless. At least Cap got some love, but him? Not so much

All in all the 5 tier is pretty HORRIBLE when you look at all this :S

DAZ0273

In the Panthos era, I could see that team being pretty nice.

Yeah, basically he has to be the focus of your team and built around but he isn't worth building around just for the red. And Arc Reactor needs House Party Protocal to give the specific 5* Iron Man perk, so I can't even use that and of course it is the one single 4* Support I have. So outside of playing him in DDQ and bringing a BlackBolt (team-up or actual), I just don't know what to do with him so he sits in the dust bin. Maybe they could change the affiliation requirement to something else not so limiting but I doubt anything will happen.

Do new characters get specifically given Cap or IM affiliations these days? I really don't know what newer partners he could even have.

Polares

DAZ0273 said:

In the Panthos era, I could see that team being pretty nice.

Yeah, basically he has to be the focus of your team and built around but he isn't worth building around just for the red. And Arc Reactor needs House Party Protocal to give the specific 5* Iron Man perk, so I can't even use that and of course it is the one single 4* Support I have. So outside of playing him in DDQ and bringing a BlackBolt (team-up or actual), I just don't know what to do with him so he sits in the dust bin. Maybe they could change the affiliation requirement to something else not so limiting but I doubt anything will happen.

Do new characters get specifically given Cap or IM affiliations these days? I really don't know what newer partners he could even have.

I looked a few time ago (more than a year) out of curiosity and no new members for teamIM or teamCap were added. I am sure Devs have forgotten about this. The last ones added are Okoye as teamCap (curious as BP is teamIM), and spiderman PP as team IM, 5hor doesn’t have affiliation. Rescue or CM dont have affiliation. To be fair, not that many Avengers released lately...

For regular PvP the best team back then for him was Rhulk+IM46 (panthos or even OML+phoenix were better), he didn’t have other decent partners (and for sim/pve the panthos one).

PiMacleod

Since I posted my listed "rant" on what 5*s brought what to the table, I've thought a little bit about it...

Each character is SUPPOSED to bring something to the table.  It's not just a toolkit of powers -- it's a theme, and depending on what it is, it may or may not mesh well with other themes.

When it started, it was kinda obvious...
Silver Surfer -- Immune to Stun, healing
OML -- regen, make strikes on ally active abilities
Phoenix -- resurrection
IM and FA:Cap -- both had team synergies... even if they weren't that amazing
Banner -- the Hulk transformation led to "free moves", and a "free health pool"
Strange -- counter-attack active abilities (although the 3* is arguably better)
....etc, etc....

But I'll stop there to say that NOW... the new guys are outshining the old guys in more than just match damage.  Some have very similar themes, but with better health, match damage, and even active abilities...

Apoc -- Immune to Stun (with a mutant), damage booster(!!)
SamDak -- low health triggers good regen, make LOTS of strikes at expense of enemy S/A/Ps
iHulk -- INSTANT resurrection, with constant situational team damage
Carnage -- "free moves" that actually gain AP with situational contingency
Sinister -- counter-attack actives with traps, can absorb damage with passive
... etc, etc...

In some cases, the situation needed isn't as "simple", but it's worth the effort (i.e. Carnage vs Banner)
In other cases, not so much (i.e. Strange vs Sinister)

Some kits haven't repeated yet (Thor, Daredevil -- the "low-health = great ability" kit;  the Black Widow/Panther stun-punisher kit, etc)

In the end, I'd like to see them rework the old guys to bring SOME value to them.  If you're gonna have these guys available to pull from Classics, make it worth someone's while.
OMLs regen should be so much better (pre-nerf, maybe, if not more).
Phoenix needs to do more than just have a fancy resurrection -- or maybe even some passives that are gained upon resurrection, so that if it happens, the enemy REALLY feels it constantly. 
IM and FACap need their synergies boosted significantly -- because if you're gonna sacrifice an entire team's makeup for a theme, it should be better than single character's 6 blue AP ability (just sayin').
Silver Surfer should have cheaper abilities... much cheaper.  Right now, he's a weird weak Havok.
Banner's theme isn't bad, if you just tweaked a few things.  Allow AP generation on Hulk free hits, for starters, and allow transformation based on green on the board (ala iHulk), so that he can come out and play more easily.  Heck... you could make his Hulk come out VERY easy, but then make it so that he goes back to Banner simply by being Stunned, representing him being sedated or calmed down.

There's so many things they could do to spice up the old guys, without having to make a whole 'nother character.  But I digress (as I usually do) -- I think this is all on purpose, to enforce the chase for the new pretty 5*, and they can always make a new Hulk, Cap, IM, etc, with a new skin, release it, and rake in the bounty from the whales alone.  Not to be a debbie-downer, but it just seems overly obvious (although the Archangel buff is still a weird point).

DAZ0273

OML's healing factor being reliant on team mates is completely counter to his loner status. I always thought the Devs were making a joke because despite being such a loner, Wolverine is a part of every team going, so it is kind'a ironic.

Phoenix needs something beyond "ignore and kill last" because she doesn't really do much.

Change Iron Man's red - the Civil War is over, baby! EVERYBODY is team Iron Man!

Surfer - make him cosmic. Banner - make him Smashy!

ThaRoadWarrior

When Rescue was released and didn't even have the Team Iron Man affiliation, I think that tells you all you need to know about their interest in IM46. With 100% overlap I don't know you'd actually want to run that team, particularly since Rescue's "turn the board red" move is also a blue power, but it only operates on SAP tiles whereas Iron Man's works on basics. If they were on other colors you could clear a board out pretty well with that combo, but you'd blue in amounts not seen since pre-nerf Bishop to do it.

There was a thread somewhere about the Team Iron Man affiliations; I can't remember the last character released to have it but it was years ago at this point. I still think Affiliation Synergy is one of the most under-utilized mechanics we have in the game. Supports that grant affiliation to any character seem like they would be interesting, but only for those characters like Kitty, 4ocket, and Iron Man where it really makes a difference (today) would you mess with it. Like imagine giving Kitty the guardians tag, and 4ocket the X-Men tag, or BRB the Runaways tag (lol; still looking for a use for you, Karolina Dean).

Arc Reactor's synergy perk is very specific to 5* Iron Man...That's kind of odd for one of those supports, usually they're a bit more generic than that to benefit that character at all tiers. I have a 3* arc reactor that was unassigned, so I just put it on him.

The reason I know Oc a bit better is because when he came out I was a 3/4* player, and had a single green for him, and I used to use that single cover power to win matches that were above my head using GSBW. I think those days of "useful at one cover" design are for the most part long past with just a few exceptions, but I have some nostalgia for it.

Jacklag

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I loved Original Flavor doc oc, the rebalance lost the fun of his convoluted insta win. And in fact, his very original flavor where he insta won wave nodes was even better, but that got nerfed like immediately. I think his ability to take turns while stunned (pre rebalance) was novel, but it went away before I had that color for him. Mine isn’t anywhere close to champed still though.

Here is an interesting (even if infuriating) idea for 5* Doc Ock. Change his blue power to::
(Passive) When you make Match-4 or greater, if there are fewer than 4 tentacle tiles on the board, create a tentacle tile.
At the start of your turn, Doctor Octopus makes a match for each tentacle tile on the board, even if he is stunned.

ThaRoadWarrior

I think you could revitalize a lot of characters by taking one of their lesser used active powers and making it passive. Eye of Agomatto, Thano5's purple (may need to be a repeater, or a Chekhov's Gun style matchable special), Fi5k's black CD, if they were just Player Turn 1 auto-drop passives I think those characters might get more regular play. Start of Battle Passives may be too powerful for say Thano5, but i guess a defensive Thano5 would be pretty obnoxious. If Goblin's CD shortener also triggered repeaters that would be pretty novel for any tier. Maybe add a little Super Villain convolution to it and require the repeaters to be fortified or something if you need to. 

PiMacleod

Jacklag said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

...

Here is an interesting (even if infuriating) idea for 5* Doc Ock. Change his blue power to::
(Passive) When you make Match-4 or greater, if there are fewer than 4 tentacle tiles on the board, create a tentacle tile.
At the start of your turn, Doctor Octopus makes a match for each tentacle tile on the board, even if he is stunned.

Ouch!  His match damage isn't THAT painful... however...

that SCREAMS out to be Prof and Onslaught's new best buddy.  :P

DAZ0273

I still see Strange and Thanos in use, Thanos health was always out of step for his time and whilst it has been surpassed now he isn't quite as laggy as most of them, so they at least haven't been totally discarded by the playerbase. It was always weird that 3* Strange yellow was as good as/maybe better than the 5* version with the healing.

I also came up against a champed Ock the other day which was a very nice surprise.

Anybody remember the last time they came across IM46 or Banner? I am pretty confident I have fought at least 2 Wasp teams since!

Colognoisseur

Vhailorx said:

Colognoisseur said:

This is a great visualization of the disparity in the 5* tier. Great job putting it together. 

It also shows what a difference a normalization of these numbers could do to the tier.

Unlike a lot of suggestions made to improve the game tweaking these values would have to be one of the easiest to achieve. 

The other interesting thing I noticed in seeing the data this way is it seems like at the moment they’ve hit a momentary upper limit on match damage. I wonder why?

I have always assumed that they implement this powercreep to help players like you colog.  If every new 5* had similar match damage and health, wouldn't your older, 500+ characters just dominate all the time?  I think the theory is that new baby champs should be able to match straight up with classic 500s. 

for someone like me, who has all baby champs, this just means that the newer releases are stupid strong, and thus only worth champing if they can true heal or otherwise won't tank everything and die quickly.  But how does it work out for you?  Are you just defaulting to okoye anyway?

I guess the answer is yes and no. I’ve always played to champ all the 5* and get then to 460-470 ish. I’ve always valued variety over having a bigger club. I haven’t used okoye for anything in PvE or pvp in months. She has been replaced by Apocalypse. Who I think is better. Which is where the affirmative answer to your question comes in. When the big match damage and low cost high damage move set plus global damage improvement was announced I was all in on getting him as big as I could. Because of the power creep. I have been very happy with the decision because he is my key character atm. 

The no part came during Bishops heyday. Silver Surfer would’ve been a fantastic counter to Bishop if the health and match damage had been similar to others. 

I also think there are those who just want something close to 550. This chart shows you would be wasting your effort to do that with the earliest 5*. 

I think I’d like a 5* tier where the older characters were normalized but perhaps I am wrong. 

Kolence

I don't wan't to go too much off topic, but I'd like to give a different opinion about Doc Ock.
I had him champed before and would use him from time to time, pvp too. I stll use him now and then, pvp too, usually if I wish to have constant healing or need to fill out blue/green with actives. He's OK after his buff. Much stronger than he was.
His blue is a pretty reliable nuke, you can usually time it when there are 1 or 2 tentacles out. But please, no extra free moves. That's annoying enough with Carnage. Such a change would make him Boss Carnage! 
I see his green mentioned and how it was very in character, if somewhat gimmicky, and I agree with all that. But! 
Well, first thing, it was very gimmicky - almost impossible to count on, in practice. The base damage was still good, and that's what I would use him for. Second thing, no one has mentioned that it is a pretty good team healing available in the 5* tier, now. IMO, it is definitely better than Rescue's and comparable with Doom's.
He did pay for these good blue and green powers with losing his unique multi turn/target stun on black, which is now a mediocre power.
As for Iron Man... I've noticed too how there have been very few newer characters with either team Cap or IM affiliations for a while now. It probably means the whole mechanic is now obsolete even if the characters still are not. But they're headed that way...
Also, I never liked how IM's red would basically require you to use the right teammates, greatly reducing the number of available teams he could work with. I would much prefer if his damage number was always the same, and some other benefit was added for having team IM members. Like letting him hit through protect tiles, for instance. That might make him more usable against some of the newer (near) meta characters/teams. And on other teams with no significant protect tiles, it wouldn't matter all that much and he could just be used with anyone. Blue is still good, though it's showing its age too, as these days it's relatively easy to quickly spam the whole board with specials and reduce its cascade potential (and damage) a lot. Yellow is just bad too... but all that's probably better left for a different topic. 

Jacklag

The graph also tells you that any effort you make to champ any 5* is a waste as well, since it's just a matter of time before a stronger 5* comes along.

PiMacleod

Jacklag said:

The graph also tells you that any effort you make to champ any 5* is a waste as well, since it's just a matter of time before a stronger 5* comes along.

Its very much a "The King is Dead -- Long Live the King!" statement.  And it's not untrue (unless your name is Okoye)

Mr_F

PiMacleod said:

Jacklag said:

The graph also tells you that any effort you make to champ any 5* is a waste as well, since it's just a matter of time before a stronger 5* comes along.

Its very much a "The King is Dead -- Long Live the King!" statement.  And it's not untrue (unless your name is Okoye)

Or Wasp.

MadScientist

Get rid of the team cap / iron man entirely and change im46's red to "Avengers".

Polares

PiMacleod said:

Jacklag said:

The graph also tells you that any effort you make to champ any 5* is a waste as well, since it's just a matter of time before a stronger 5* comes along.

Its very much a "The King is Dead -- Long Live the King!" statement.  And it's not untrue (unless your name is Okoye)

It is not just Okoye. Thor is older and kitty is also a must. But yeah, other than those 3 everybody else in the meta is way more recent.

Also, 5s usually dominate for years, plural, before they get completely replaced. So I think it is pretty important to champ them. But you need to chose right.