I hate this new PvE format. Here's why it may be awesome.

Unknown

Let me start off by saying I hate having to grind like hell in this game. and especially in PVE. Recently, Demiurge swapped us to a new format that eliminates rubberbanding and forces us to grind more. While I hate the emphasis on having to grind, here's why I think it could be heading in the direction of awesome if Demiurge are willing to take it there.

First off, it's fairer to all players. I say this, despite the fact it's against my interests. I've a decent number of 3-stars now, though most are far from maxed and I only have a few high level, but I have enough to generally be able to use them for essential nodes. So I prefer being able to just use those featured characters and rubberband through pve's. I think everyone who's played a while and has a collection of characters prefers this, but here's why the new format is better for the game as whole (or can be if they don't screw up). By de-emphasizing essential nodes, and emphasizing grinding, it actually makes PvE's fairer for all players because you're no longer screwed if you don't have the featured characters. Instead you just grind the other nodes some more, which might not be easy, if scaling is high, but is now within the realm of possibility. Additionally, if it becomes the norm, I have a feeling it will reduce the amount of grinding needed, since people will stop playing PvE's as much, unless they really want those covers. And that's a good thing if it means they have a choice now whether or not to participate. This also presumably would give D3 a better gauge of level of interest in new characters.

In fact, I really hope they don't just stop there, and they take this one step further. I think it'd be great if they made the essential nodes like a bubble, where they aren't worth much, but they also don't touch your characters' health outside of the match (just feeds in full health and doesn't report out the health loss). IOTW, I'd like to see essential nodes providing well-covered copies of new heroes, and let you bring in whoever you want, and play them as many times, with as many different characters you want, so that you can test drive new heroes and decide whether or not they fit you're play-style/ roster. Make the normal nodes count more, but focus more on personal scaling, instead of community scaling, and tweak it so it doesn't get out of control.

I think it would also awesome if they restructure PvE's to be more of a trial mode for new characters, and less of a grind like hell in order to earn them. To this effect, it would be nice to see either the characters moved to being progression rewards instead of bracket rewards, or alternatively as 1st time rewards for "gold" nodes on sub events that only unlock once the global progression bar reaches a certain point. This would allow players to play PvE's more casually in general, but grind when there's a new character they want bad, and it would also help Demiurge judge level of interest in new characters, beyond players simply grinding like hell because they need the characters for future PvE's and then burning out as a result. Just please don't nerf the rewards again. Keep them as 3 covers.

Lately, I've been extremely sketpical of Demiurge's motives behind a lot of changes, and generally critical of the way things seem to be going, but I wanted to take a moment to reflect on what they might be doing right here (as long as they're willing to push it a step further). My impression has been that the biggest source of burnout in this game has been the long, grindy PvE's with uncertain rewards at the end, on top of the PvP schedule. I think it would be a great thing for them to continue de-emphasizing PvE's as a required grind-fest, and continue restructuring them into a story mode / test drive mode for new characters.

I'd also like to see the game focus less on health packs in general, and more on being able to try different character combinations without being unable to play them again for 8+ hours if you lose. I'd like to see PvP be less about health packs, and boosts, and shields, less about having to tank constantly to keep it playable (in large part because of the broken health pack system), and more about tough, rewarding matches that punish you less for losing and reward you more for winning. And I'd like to see less required grind in all modes, while keeping grinding options open for those who want to. I'd like to see players get some readily earnable "core" character set in star level, so that newer players aren't left out, and additional characters be more like DLC content, earnable by winning or by purchasing, instead of the way it is currently, with the DLC content being required to play the game at all.

Anyway, these are just my early morning ramblings. Take them for whatever they are, or aren't worth.

rixmith

Just to provide a counterpoint, I'm really enjoying the Prodigal Sun PvE, more so than many others. With the nodes worth fairly small amounts, I don't feel like I have to do a grind on every refresh or be totally out of the running. Or that players who are able to play at the optimal times for rubberbanding can just zoom past me when I can't play at those times. Even though I didn't get Daken until Fresh Cut ended, I'm still in the running for a Sentry cover.

And I am very much enjoying playing from the DA perspective, and the dialog, as usual, is entertaining. So overall, I would saw this is one of the best PvE formats for my playstyle.

morgh

I really fail to see how "having to spend 1-2 hours (or more if you wipe) every 12 hours after you join a bracket" can be considered fun... and that's what you HAVE to do, to remain competitive in a sub-bracket (if you care for tokens, which suck majorly without awesome luck)
I prefered the old format which allowed for much less time spent REPEATEDLY - as I always played each node anyway at least once - sometimes more to get to some awards, but when I am forced to do it to remain competitive, I start to dislike it greatly...

If the grinding is to stay, I would very much however want to see a scaling reduction... just one-two wins playing well with C.mags makes the level jump up horribly

Ryz-aus

rixmith wrote:

Just to provide a counterpoint, I'm really enjoying the Prodigal Sun PvE, more so than many others. With the nodes worth fairly small amounts, I don't feel like I have to do a grind on every refresh or be totally out of the running. Or that players who are able to play at the optimal times for rubberbanding can just zoom past me when I can't play at those times. Even though I didn't get Daken until Fresh Cut ended, I'm still in the running for a Sentry cover.

And I am very much enjoying playing from the DA perspective, and the dialog, as usual, is entertaining. So overall, I would saw this is one of the best PvE formats for my playstyle.

Same here. I understand that people don't want to grind, but I love that I am not worried about rubber banding letting people blow past me at the end because the PVE event ends when I am at work or asleep. For PVP I can push when I want and throw up a shield, but for PVE that hasn't been possible.

Unknown

morgh wrote:

I really fail to see how "having to spend 1-2 hours (or more if you wipe) every 12 hours after you join a bracket" can be considered fun... and that's what you HAVE to do, to remain competitive in a sub-bracket (if you care for tokens, which suck majorly without awesome luck)
I prefered the old format which allowed for much less time spent REPEATEDLY - as I always played each node anyway at least once - sometimes more to get to some awards, but when I am forced to do it to remain competitive, I start to dislike it greatly...

If the grinding is to stay, I would very much however want to see a scaling reduction... just one-two wins playing well with C.mags makes the level jump up horribly

I respect your perspective, however I don't think you actually read what I wrote. I like the potential I see in this new format, rather than the current status quo as the be-all-end-all. Like I said, I'm not a fan of grinding. In fact, I specifically said they'd need to tweak it to fix scaling.

Also, I don't think thumbing down every post in the thread makes your opinion more valid.

Unknown

All the new structure does is take away hope immediately instead of at the end so you know when to give up, instead of playing thinking you had a chance and fall to top 100 at the end anyway. Even when everyone thinks they had a chance, only 2 guys can finish top 2 out of 1000.

If you're complaining about the rubberband-less bracket and their refresh time, you never would have been competitive against the guys who have the exact clear path worked out ahead of time through multiple refreshes. I haven't been close to hitting every refresh on the 4 rubberband-less brackets and I'm still increasing my lead on #1 comfortably over everyone in my main bracket. If someone can squeeze in an extra refresh with some insane schedule all that means is the KO comes even earlier. I'd prefer if the mission refresh occured on server time (which should've happened a long time ago but never did), but timing issues like this is hardly important because the guys complaining about them were never close to winning in the first place, let alone competing with the hypothetical guy who never missed a refresh.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

All the new structure does is take away hope immediately instead of at the end so you know when to give up, instead of playing thinking you had a chance and fall to top 100 at the end anyway. Even when everyone thinks they had a chance, only 2 guys can finish top 2 out of 1000.

If you're complaining about the rubberband-less bracket and their refresh time, you never would have been competitive against the guys who have the exact clear path worked out ahead of time through multiple refreshes. I haven't been close to hitting every refresh on the 4 rubberband-less brackets and I'm still increasing my lead on #1 comfortably over everyone in my main bracket. If someone can squeeze in an extra refresh with some insane schedule all that means is the KO comes even earlier. I'd prefer if the mission refresh occured on server time (which should've happened a long time ago but never did), but timing issues like this is hardly important because the guys complaining about them were never close to winning in the first place, let alone competing with the hypothetical guy who never missed a refresh.

Except most people don't care about top 2, or even top 10. Just enough to get the covers. Which this whole 'lead' thing you keep repeating doesn't have anything to do with.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Except most people don't care about top 2, or even top 10. Just enough to get the covers. Which this whole 'lead' thing you keep repeating doesn't have anything to do with.

You don't think the #20 is trying to KO the guy at #21 since that's where the cutoff for 2 3* covers?

All these complaints we see shows that it is indeed possible to knock someone out of #20 or #100 (cutoff for 3*). Whoever is sitting at #100 obviously is going to think "I better grind a bit harder to make sure that #101 guy can't possibly catch up". The difference is that before rubberbanding makes it hard for the guy at #101 to see he's lost, while now you can have a fairly decisive KO early on. But someone who can KO someone in this format could've done it on the old format too (assuming both faces the same schedule/scaling). It just happens sooner so people can stop wasting their time chasing someone who is still going to beat them at the end. All this system is get rid of the false hope for the guys who weren't going to finish top 2/20/100/whatever.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Except most people don't care about top 2, or even top 10. Just enough to get the covers. Which this whole 'lead' thing you keep repeating doesn't have anything to do with.

You don't think the #20 is trying to KO the guy at #21 since that's where the cutoff for 2 3* covers?

All these complaints we see shows that it is indeed possible to knock someone out of #20 or #100 (cutoff for 3*). Whoever is sitting at #100 obviously is going to think "I better grind a bit harder to make sure that #101 guy can't possibly catch up". The difference is that before rubberbanding makes it hard for the guy at #101 to see he's lost, while now you can have a fairly decisive KO early on. But someone who can KO someone in this format could've done it on the old format too (assuming both faces the same schedule/scaling). It just happens sooner so people can stop wasting their time chasing someone who is still going to beat them at the end. All this system is get rid of the false hope for the guys who weren't going to finish top 2/20/100/whatever.

I'm saying that there is next to no "getting a lead" at 20, much less a hundred, since that's well within the normal rubber-banding zone. No one at that level is looking the 5 spaces ahead of them and saying, "nope that's not possible". At least not until the last 5 minutes or so.

Spoit

Yes, it's different this time because there's no rubberbanding, so the leads are just a matter of math. But You've been repeating this same kitty litter for months now. Back during the simulator run before last, you kept repeating it like a mantra, but I was able to pull an #2 finish behind you with just a single clear plus a handful of essentials. Per Sub, not per refresh.

I'd bet, dollars to donuts, that the number of people who count the number of points each refresh and get the calculator to count it out each refresh are in the triple digits, at most. So no, I doubt most people realize that it's not possible.

And more importantly, most people aren't willing to repeatedly bang their heads against a brick wall of 395 enemies every single refresh simply to keep up

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Yes, it's different this time because there's no rubberbanding, so the leads are just a matter of math. But You've been repeating this same kitty litter for months now. Back during the simulator run before last, you kept repeating it like a mantra, but I was able to pull an #2 finish behind you with just a single clear plus a handful of essentials. Per Sub, not per refresh.

I'd bet, dollars to donuts, that the number of people who count the number of points each refresh and get the calculator to count it out each refresh are in the triple digits, at most. So no, I doubt most people realize that it's not possible.

And more importantly, most people aren't willing to repeatedly bang their heads against a brick wall of 395 enemies every single refresh simply to keep up

Pretty sure you got #2 in Unstable Isotope, which had the old generous rubberbanding and no sub events. Even with only one main event I didn't push the last refresh as hard as I could have because I had a rather commanding lead. It'd be way easier in any other event that is divided into sub events where the lead I can build is permanent.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Yes, it's different this time because there's no rubberbanding, so the leads are just a matter of math. But You've been repeating this same kitty litter for months now. Back during the simulator run before last, you kept repeating it like a mantra, but I was able to pull an #2 finish behind you with just a single clear plus a handful of essentials. Per Sub, not per refresh.

I'd bet, dollars to donuts, that the number of people who count the number of points each refresh and get the calculator to count it out each refresh are in the triple digits, at most. So no, I doubt most people realize that it's not possible.

And more importantly, most people aren't willing to repeatedly bang their heads against a brick wall of 395 enemies every single refresh simply to keep up

Pretty sure you got #2 in Unstable Isotope, which had the old generous rubberbanding and no sub events. Even with only one main event I didn't push the last refresh as hard as I could have because I had a rather commanding lead. It'd be way easier in any other event that is divided into sub events where the lead I can build is permanent.

No it was the one that had 2 versions of the same map, an easy and a hard mode.

Either way, My point is that your advice only really works if you're going for first, and are willing to fight 300+ enemies just to treed water. Which is exactly the oposite of what would be helpful to most people

Unknown

who in the world can play full time grinding?? This is nuts!

Tharos

Didn't had the time or the motivation to test this new format a lot (finished between 400 and 600 each sub, with only one or two game on each node that does not require daken), but I agree with the op: it seems to be more fair. Players that wants to play more than the others (thus playing with higher scaling) should have more points than players that do not want to play too much. They deserve more their covers than players that used to win covers mainly because they live in the right timezone.

Well, of course, it sucks for players like me that do not want to grind a lot, but at least now it's fair, and the rules are easy to understand. (and it will be easier if they add a refresh timer!!).

The only bad thing I see, is for people that want the biggests rewards and miss a refresh due to IRL things. But they will at least have high enough rewards I gess.
This format will work under only one condition: that no so many people will grind as crazy.

Unknown

What if.....crazy marvel addicts do it around the world? Just 50 of them every day, and every event is ruled by them...?

Unknown

wuming79 wrote:

who in the world can play full time grinding?? This is nuts!

I surely can't and not want to either.

But what is nuts really? I just play a few games here and there and finish in the middle or under it -- why shouldn't the people who play and perform better get to and stay on top?

Sure it is convenient to some people who can manage to play at certain special time points to jump ahead hardly playing -- but THAT is the thing sounds nuts IMNSHO.

Also the high-RB event like last Hulk quite proved it needs no less grinding for positions at all -- but completely invalidates one's progress unless can play the last day and last minutes.

Unknown

I'd be ok with either system, but this event switched rules in between subs. This sucks big time. No consistency makes it just a game of luck.

Dragon_Nexus

Once the double sub events showed up, my interest in this event waned masively.
I wore the nodes down to a low amount, went away for 12 hours, came back and they were worth about 200 at best. And the guy in front had at least 2000 more points than me. And the nodes had been scaled to be level 120+.
Suddenly the event stopped being fun and became an exercise in long winded fights with little reward, so it took forever to gain any headway. I started out this event cruising around the top ten, but as my interest waned in fighting level 150 enemies over and over to scrape by a measily 300 points, crawling up the leaderboard like I entered a PvP on the last day and want to be No 1, I fell down to top 100. Barely.

I didn't mind pouring an hour into this every twelve hours or there abouts, but this event just poured a barrel of apathy over me. It wasn't fun. It was a horrible and unrewarding grind against enemies that would wipe me out with just the right cascade.

mohio

It's too bad people aren't talking about the changes the OP suggested and instead are just talking about how they view the current PvE environment. Anyway, I like the post and would love it if they would switch most of the rewards over to progression rewards. Then everyone can see how much grinding is needed to get the good rewards and decide at the beginning what they're going to shoot for. Everything doesn't have to be a competition in this game, why not just make it truly "player vs. environment" rather than the who can grind the most competition?

Unknown

mohio wrote:

It's too bad people aren't talking about the changes the OP suggested and instead are just talking about how they view the current PvE environment. Anyway, I like the post and would love it if they would switch most of the rewards over to progression rewards. Then everyone can see how much grinding is needed to get the good rewards and decide at the beginning what they're going to shoot for. Everything doesn't have to be a competition in this game, why not just make it truly "player vs. environment" rather than the who can grind the most competition?

I thought grinding to 45K is pretty 'player vs. environment' and the effort seems appropriate to that kind of reward.

Unknown

I'll agree with some who said the no rubberbanding is more fair. Now the winner is he who wins the most, which is kinda how it should be. Scaling has to go tho, under this format. Just make the nodes as challenging as you want them to be from the start. Does this particular story have a level 240 Venom at the end? Then put one in there. Don't have different nodes for different people with the same point totals being offered.

Scaling and rubberbanding were sort of balancing forces when used together, scaling made you play less, and rubberbanding kept you in the running even if you played less. Without the rubberbanding scaling will gate some people out of top rewards. That node you could barely defeat once, guess what, the guy who beat it 5 times is always going to be ahead of you now because no rubberbanding. If the point is to make it 'fair' then everyone has to fight the same guys.

I really liked that the reward for filling the meter was a free Sentry cover. I wish they'd do this more. The Mayhem Meter in the other subs was totally useless. Unlocked 3 more nodes with no special rewards to speak of. I'd like to see them give out featured characters in those subs. Like, a Daken Vs. Ares node that gives out an Ares cover. Would be good for aspiring players building their 2* roster and the equivalent of the 250 iso reward to the rest of us. I had not noticed they lowered the goal, but good on them for making it attainable. I got my 45k Purple Daken as well, so overall I feel the structure of the event was sound.

I'm not sure there was rubberbanding in the essential nodes so much as they upped their point value to meet the meter after lowering it by half.