PVP defense team - how to check the current setup

hstpctech

Hi,

This question has been asked around in the forum since years ago but no one has the answer yet.

Last night was my first time ever in SHIELD sim PVP to gained eight consecutive wins in defensive, but I completely forgot the team composition. I had played a few other matches since, so the currently chosen team are definitely not the SHIELD sim defensive team.

thedarkphoenix

I've been playing since release and funny enough I still don't really know how it works after the changes.

HoundofShadow

A rule of thumb is your defense team is based on your top 3 highest level team used. 

Alternatively, someone who lost to you tells you whom they lost to (very slim chance).

If not, let us know some of the teams that you used and we couls et you know which team is likely to be giving you defensive win.

hstpctech

@HoundofShadow
What is the criteria to decide the top 3 teams?

I don't think anyone would respond timely, also I don't even know how to reach out to them in the first place.

For the current running SHIELD sim, my viable teams are:
- 5*Apocalypse/5*Yelena/5*Onslaught or 5*Sinister
- 5*Wolverine/4*CaptainMarvel/4*InvisibleWoman or 5*Sinister
- some combination of these characters, but I always team up Wolverine with CaptainMarvel
- 5*Hulk/4*America/5*Sinister

Although for some reasons, this particular team had stopped winning consecutive matches today. It's more or less losing slowly as usual.

hstpctech

thedarkphoenix said:

I've been playing since release and funny enough I still don't really know how it works after the changes.

I am not even aware there are changes!

HoundofShadow

Team iHulk has the biggest potential to give you those wins. 

hstpctech

HoundofShadow said:

Team iHulk has the biggest potential to give you those wins. 

I tend to agree on this, because it was my first to bring iHulk into SHIELD sim. But again, it might be just a flux because the gain was stopped the next day.

It's difficult to remember the team composition when there are one PVE and three PVP running at the same time.

hstpctech

It would be great if D3 puts a magic button to set up defense teams like what they did with Marvel Avenger Alliance.

HoundofShadow

Based on my experience, I don't get notification for Shield Sim everyday. 

You can forget about that happening because it will be abused, unless the devs has a counter mechanism.

hstpctech

HoundofShadow said:

Based on my experience, I don't get notification for Shield Sim everyday. 

You can forget about that happening because it will be abused, unless the devs has a counter mechanism.

I suppose; win lose notification doesn't report every match results. I'll just try to enjoy the game in its current iteration.

bluewolf

The defensive team is, broadly speaking, the last team you used to win a match.  Switching teams during a run can result in the following:

1.  Someone queues your last team run after you are done (shielded or just stopped)*
2.  Someone you beat saves that retal node and hits that team, in which case it would be whatever team you used to beat them.
3.  Someone is looking for queues in middle of your run and saves a node with an easier/harder team for later, comes back and hits you.*  

*  The asterisk is in relation to what kind of variety of teams you are using.  (Different tiers.)  Years ago, players would sometimes, when coordinating with other players to build PVP scores up, play an easier to defeat team that those players could then q for later.  This would mean running a tier or more lower than the tier they were typically using to win matches.  The devs changed that a few years ago, so you can't have a defensive team that is significantly lower than you have been running appear as a q.  If you are running 5s and use some weak 4 team to win a match the 5 team will generally be the one that other people can q.

When you receive blues, it's also possible that people were retreating to lower their score and find easier to beat teams.  Now, when you get 8 in a row, it's not super likely they were all retreats, but some of them might have been.

In general you can see/know which teams work well.  Sometimes someone finds a secret sauce or slight variant on what works best. I could definitely see the Hulk/Sinister team catching some players by surprise.  You don't really mention what levels your characters are at, but that has a lot to do with who's seeing you, who they might have trouble with etc.  Also the wins could be related to how active people are, etc, on certain days.  Sinister's traps work with either team matching them and iHulk does a lot of board shake, making free matches more likely.

KGB

hstpctech said:

It would be great if D3 puts a magic button to set up defense teams like what they did with Marvel Avenger Alliance.

No one would ever play PvP if this was implemented. All you would ever see then is the same teams on defense (Bishop) as everyone would set the exact same team.

KGB

bluewolf

KGB said:

hstpctech said:

It would be great if D3 puts a magic button to set up defense teams like what they did with Marvel Avenger Alliance.

No one would ever play PvP if this was implemented. All you would ever see then is the same teams on defense (Bishop) as everyone would set the exact same team.

KGB

You are correct except that people would still play PVP.

You do realize many players are all-in until they just aren't.....Gluttons for punishment, sometimes.

People would find some way around the teams.  OR!  Maybe the devs would finally nerf Bishop already if all anyone could queue/fight was BRBshop teams.

hstpctech

KGB said:

hstpctech said:

It would be great if D3 puts a magic button to set up defense teams like what they did with Marvel Avenger Alliance.

No one would ever play PvP if this was implemented. All you would ever see then is the same teams on defense (Bishop) as everyone would set the exact same team.

KGB

All I see the most is Karnak. Occasionally Bishop, but always Karnak. Right after I finished all the seed teams, Karnak would definitely make an appearance.

hstpctech

@bluewolf
I was too excited at the time I forgot to post my character levels.

lvl360 2 1 5 iHulk 
lvl330 1 4 2 Apocalypse 
lvl315 2 2 0 Yelena 
lvl300 1 0 2 Sinister 
lvl273 4 4 5 Invisible Woman
lvl315 1 2 1 Wolverine
lvl250 4 5 3 America
lvl250 5 5 2 Captain Marvel

iHulk/America/Sinister net me only a single win today, floating around 1500 points. Whatever happened two days probably was a flux.

bluewolf

hstpctech said:

KGB said:

hstpctech said:

It would be great if D3 puts a magic button to set up defense teams like what they did with Marvel Avenger Alliance.

No one would ever play PvP if this was implemented. All you would ever see then is the same teams on defense (Bishop) as everyone would set the exact same team.

KGB

All I see the most is Karnak. Occasionally Bishop, but always Karnak. Right after I finished all the seed teams, Karnak would definitely make an appearance.

In the 4 tier, Karnak is a major player, obviously.  Very much in the meta conversation.  If you don't have Rocket and Juggs and can down him before 4 turns (or, I guess, run Gamora with Vulture or something and keep him permastunned) he has an unavoidable countdown to blowing up the board.

Bishop is used in the 4 tier to a lesser extent, but in general, you see him mostly on champed 5* teams and mostly in pick-3 events.  Some people run BRB with Bishop as it's a very hard team to deal with.  Apocalypse has helped this situation but he's still everywhere in some events.

Bishop is broken in the 5 tier and has been for 20 months, since his release.

bluewolf

@hstpctech

So looking at your teams/characters, it seems to me that your MMR is such that there could be many people in your qs, and who q you, who could underestimate your teams.  So wins are less a function of truly good teams, perhaps, as they are a function of the caliber of player who is seeing you and trying to fight your teams.

When/if you develop your teams more you will move into a tier of players who are more knowledgeable about the game and characters.  As you get higher, in general, players will know better which teams they can and can't beat and blues/wins will become more rare.

grunth13

bluewolf said:

The defensive team is, broadly speaking, the last team you used to win a match.  Switching teams during a run can result in the following:

1.  Someone queues your last team run after you are done (shielded or just stopped)*
2.  Someone you beat saves that retal node and hits that team, in which case it would be whatever team you used to beat them.
3.  Someone is looking for queues in middle of your run and saves a node with an easier/harder team for later, comes back and hits you.*  

*  The asterisk is in relation to what kind of variety of teams you are using.  (Different tiers.)  Years ago, players would sometimes, when coordinating with other players to build PVP scores up, play an easier to defeat team that those players could then q for later.  This would mean running a tier or more lower than the tier they were typically using to win matches.  The devs changed that a few years ago, so you can't have a defensive team that is significantly lower than you have been running appear as a q.  If you are running 5s and use some weak 4 team to win a match the 5 team will generally be the one that other people can q.

When you receive blues, it's also possible that people were retreating to lower their score and find easier to beat teams.  Now, when you get 8 in a row, it's not super likely they were all retreats, but some of them might have been.

In general you can see/know which teams work well.  Sometimes someone finds a secret sauce or slight variant on what works best. I could definitely see the Hulk/Sinister team catching some players by surprise.  You don't really mention what levels your characters are at, but that has a lot to do with who's seeing you, who they might have trouble with etc.  Also the wins could be related to how active people are, etc, on certain days.  Sinister's traps work with either team matching them and iHulk does a lot of board shake, making free matches more likely.

A little history on defensive teams.  Back in the day we would use 1 star or 2 star x2 with loaner to "bake a cupcake" even if you had a 550 roster.  Back then, whatever team you used last, would show up as your defensive team.  Many people complained that this was cheating and not what was intended since people were scoring 4k per event and without coordination one could not get high placement.  The devs agreed with this and changed it to some extent.  Now it determines what your defensive team is based on which teams you have used for the event.  Therefore, a 550 roster could start and use only 3star or 4star teams and still be able to use classic cupcake team as a defensive, but you will still be fighting against your typical matches that the algorithm gives (other 550 teams) until you break MMR.  As a 550 roster, I can go down to about 520 or 530, 4star or sometimes a 3star (usually maxed) and loaner.  When I use my 550, I can typically go down to 2 star maxed and loaner 3.  If its a 4star pvp, I have to go 3star maxed if its an old 4star that I have at 370, or lower if its a newer 4 star.  As for how this is determined, it seems it is based on the highest 3 characters you have used that pvp.  The math hasn't been worked out by anyone on Line or if it has, no one has cared enough to share it broadly.  Also, this new method has done nothing to the high points per event as people have actually scored higher (7k being the max I have seen).  What it has done is that lower rosters can't q 75 point cupcakes and get easy wins like they did in the past.  Hope that helps some more.

hstpctech

bluewolf said:

@hstpctech

So looking at your teams/characters, it seems to me that your MMR is such that there could be many people in your qs, and who q you, who could underestimate your teams.  So wins are less a function of truly good teams, perhaps, as they are a function of the caliber of player who is seeing you and trying to fight your teams.

When/if you develop your teams more you will move into a tier of players who are more knowledgeable about the game and characters.  As you get higher, in general, players will know better which teams they can and can't beat and blues/wins will become more rare.

Completely agree with you. In fact my first post in the forum was about my broken MMR. My roster is so unbalanced at the moment, all I see are 4 and 5 champions. @HoundofShadow helped me a lot in this topic, as well as some other nice/friendly players, too.

It's easy to see most players would underestimate my roster, since it's mostly not fully covered and not championed at all.

One thing I am still confused of, what is queueing and how do we do that?

hstpctech

grunth13 said:

A little history on defensive teams.  Back in the day we would use 1 star or 2 star x2 with loaner to "bake a cupcake" even if you had a 550 roster.  Back then, whatever team you used last, would show up as your defensive team.  Many people complained that this was cheating and not what was intended since people were scoring 4k per event and without coordination one could not get high placement.  The devs agreed with this and changed it to some extent.  Now it determines what your defensive team is based on which teams you have used for the event.  Therefore, a 550 roster could start and use only 3star or 4star teams and still be able to use classic cupcake team as a defensive, but you will still be fighting against your typical matches that the algorithm gives (other 550 teams) until you break MMR.  As a 550 roster, I can go down to about 520 or 530, 4star or sometimes a 3star (usually maxed) and loaner.  When I use my 550, I can typically go down to 2 star maxed and loaner 3.  If its a 4star pvp, I have to go 3star maxed if its an old 4star that I have at 370, or lower if its a newer 4 star.  As for how this is determined, it seems it is based on the highest 3 characters you have used that pvp.  The math hasn't been worked out by anyone on Line or if it has, no one has cared enough to share it broadly.  Also, this new method has done nothing to the high points per event as people have actually scored higher (7k being the max I have seen).  What it has done is that lower rosters can't q 75 point cupcakes and get easy wins like they did in the past.  Hope that helps some more.

This is a lot more insight than I expected from my original simplistic question.

If I understood it correctly, setting up a lowly defensive team is no longer viable as the matchmaking is decided by the top 3 used in the PVP.

The current No Good News PVP has been treating me quite nice so far. I stick with iHulk/America/Hawkeye since all I see is mostly Karnak, and so far I am matched with lowly iHulk, and slightly championed 3*. Opponents health are ranging from 12k to 20k, so they are not terribly difficult. This is in contrast with the previous PVP Stay on Target, where I was matched with substantially stronger opponents, even though my team composition was the same iHulk/America. I even chose the same time slice for both PVPs.

grunth13

hstpctech said:

grunth13 said:

A little history on defensive teams.  Back in the day we would use 1 star or 2 star x2 with loaner to "bake a cupcake" even if you had a 550 roster.  Back then, whatever team you used last, would show up as your defensive team.  Many people complained that this was cheating and not what was intended since people were scoring 4k per event and without coordination one could not get high placement.  The devs agreed with this and changed it to some extent.  Now it determines what your defensive team is based on which teams you have used for the event.  Therefore, a 550 roster could start and use only 3star or 4star teams and still be able to use classic cupcake team as a defensive, but you will still be fighting against your typical matches that the algorithm gives (other 550 teams) until you break MMR.  As a 550 roster, I can go down to about 520 or 530, 4star or sometimes a 3star (usually maxed) and loaner.  When I use my 550, I can typically go down to 2 star maxed and loaner 3.  If its a 4star pvp, I have to go 3star maxed if its an old 4star that I have at 370, or lower if its a newer 4 star.  As for how this is determined, it seems it is based on the highest 3 characters you have used that pvp.  The math hasn't been worked out by anyone on Line or if it has, no one has cared enough to share it broadly.  Also, this new method has done nothing to the high points per event as people have actually scored higher (7k being the max I have seen).  What it has done is that lower rosters can't q 75 point cupcakes and get easy wins like they did in the past.  Hope that helps some more.

This is a lot more insight than I expected from my original simplistic question.

If I understood it correctly, setting up a lowly defensive team is no longer viable as the matchmaking is decided by the top 3 used in the PVP.

The current No Good News PVP has been treating me quite nice so far. I stick with iHulk/America/Hawkeye since all I see is mostly Karnak, and so far I am matched with lowly iHulk, and slightly championed 3*. Opponents health are ranging from 12k to 20k, so they are not terribly difficult. This is in contrast with the previous PVP Stay on Target, where I was matched with substantially stronger opponents, even though my team composition was the same iHulk/America. I even chose the same time slice for both PVPs.

Matchmaking for you is determined by what you HAVE in your roster as the top 3.  Meaning I have multiple 550s and will only see 550s or close to it even if I start the event using only 1 star x2 with a loaner.  But if I am able to win with that 1 star x2 with a loaner against a 550, that is the team everyone will see as my defensive team.  Now if at any point I use a anything higher than a 270 x2 with loaner, I doubt I will ever be able to use a 1 star x2 with loaner because the level is too vast.  I would probably be able to use a 270 4 star with a 1 star  with loaner.  So your matchmaking never changes because you have rostered and leveled what you have.  Your defensive team can be fudged to some extent based on what you have PLAYED that event.