In PvP, does choosing a lower SCL give you easier matches?

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Chipster22
Chipster22 Posts: 297 Mover and Shaker
edited June 2020 in MPQ General Discussion
I've always read that the SCL chosen in PvP does not affect matchmaking.  In other words, the teams you face in SCL10 are the same that you would face in SCL8 because matchmaking is based solely on your roster strength.

Several of my teammates are convinced that they are getting easier matches in lower SCLs.  

Has it been officially documented that the SCL chosen has no effect on difficulty?  Could this have changed?  What are players personal experiences?

Thanks.
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  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,192 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Not that I've noticed. I still match against the same teams. 
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    edited June 2020
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    No, it does not affect match-making.

    It does affect your visibility: if I join a lower CL it's less likely that players with a comparable roster will be there. This means that it's less likely that these players will see me on leaderboards and eventually look for me, thus I may get less hits.

  • hstpctech
    hstpctech Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    Will the heroes levels affect the match-making too? For example, if the heroes are eligible for leveling up but I keep them at their current levels.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    These are the factors that affect your overall PvP MMR:

    1) the levels of the three characters in the first row, including featured characters, after boost. I heard that if you roster 5* but did not level them up, they won't affect your PvPs. However, you will still see 2* or 3* players with 5* characters because they got lucky and drew 5*. 

    2) Which time slice you join (more important for SCL 7-10). SCL 6 and below can ignore this.

    3) your PvP scores

    4) When you start climbing PvPs.

    Climbing the first and last 8 hours of PvPs is generally not a good idea. Go to youtube and google for "The Jerusalem Sequence in World War Z". Look at the scene starting from 1min10sec to 1 min14 sec. This is how things typically look like in the first and last 8 hours of PvPs when you try to climb high.

    If you are interested in only progression rewards using the least amount of win, I recommend joining PvPs when they begin but play them when the timer shows 1d 1X hrs. By then, opponents are worth more points, and fewer players are climbing. 

    In the beginning, matchmaking is typically based on Factor 1. Based on my exp, PvPs are generally easier when you don't have that featured character rostered, like new 4* or 5* releases, or 3* when you are in 3* land.

    Depending on when you hit 800 point in PvP, MMR will take a drastic change. For example, when I was in 3* land and I climbed to 800+ point in the last 8 hours or so, I'm getting matched with champed 4*. In 4* land, I can hit 1000 comfortably.

    If you are a 3* player, aim for 800 points in SCL 6. It should net you top 5 placement, unless things have changed.

  • Dark Nova
    Dark Nova Posts: 56 Match Maker
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    I don't think the leaderboard plays any part in who you're matched against.  I recently checked the rosters of players +/- 10 places around me on the PvP leaderboard and they seemed very underpowered in comparison, yet every team I faced in the nodes (and every team that hit me) was a 3 x 5* Champed team, with the occasional Worthy Cap or Bishop thrown in for extra annoyance.

    It feels like MMR just picks out any player with a "slightly better than your" roster, who is playing somewhere in the tournament, and pits you against them.

    I don't notice any difference in opponent 'toughness' between SCL 8, 9 or 10.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2020
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    Based on my exp, 800 points in SCL 6 is enough to break you out of your normal MMR range. You will be meeting championed boosted 4* if you try to climb beyond 800. However, they are worth at least 40 to 60 points.

    Provided you don't play in those 2 timeslots I mentioned, you will be able to hit 800 points (scl 6) in 3* land and up till 1000 in 4* without your points plummeting within a few minutes.

    In 4* land, the moment you hit 1000, get ready for a barrage of attacks on you.

    The leaderboard is a good way for me to see if I entered the leaderboard too early. If I hit top 20 with 600 points or top 10 with 700 points, it means I'm playing PvP too early, which means I'll be down to        ~3-400 points in a few hours. 

    What kind of teams you put out also matters in determining how often you get hit.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,311 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Your SCL has NOTHING TO DO with your matches nor when you break MMR nor when you start being seen by bigger rosters or anything except two things:

    1.  What progression and placement rewards do you get?

    2.  What teams (based on limitations of SCL selection in PVP) will be competing with you in your leaderboard for the end and placement rewards you get?

    It has nothing to do with any other aspect of PVP play.

    In terms of who is competing with you on your leaderboard, going up in SCLs begins to limit you to higher SCLs and leaves the lower ones for newer rosters to compete in (a good thing for the game, although newer people eventually find they are ultimately competing with 6 year vets instead of a bunch of players who barely played or are new like them, once the newer tryhards have improved their roster into the SCL7+ range).

    It is true that playing a lot at the end (last 8 hours) will mean likely seeing harder teams to fight, because the weaker teams will be being ganged-up by all the players looking desperately for points.  I am not sure that playing early would mean finding harder opponents.

    As you improve your roster, your natural float point goes up.  Also, it's worth considering what PVPs are being run in the game.  For example, if you are a newer player and it's a 4/5* PVP, odds are a lot of similar rosters are using the loaner in the match which could mean an easier match vs a 3* pvp where more players will have a champed 3 in the middle who has more health and could do more damage to you.  Those same players might have decided to drop to a lower SCL because they thought they couldn't compete as well with their low cover (maybe nonexistent?) essential 4* and while they might experience easier matches than a typical 3* PVP, it wouldn't be because of the SCL but just who is being run in general.  So your MMR and matches will vary from PVP to PVP sometimes.

    There is no way they have changed the SCLs to modify your MMR or matches based on which you choose.  PVP MAY be slightly more popular among newer players desperate for HP than it was before they nerfed the HP rewards in Champs and PVE, but in general it remains a mode of play that many players avoid, or hate and play while holding their nose.  Thus the number of players have remained approx the same as there were before SCL10.....which was already going down a bit in general, at least in the higher SCLs....which means that segmenting out the playerbase more would mean less targets if your SCL somehow limited which teams you could see.  It is to the game's advantage to show you as many potential targets as possible given the limits they face (fairly low engagement and you need a player to be unshielded and at your approx roster level and within a certain score range to be able to see them).

  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2020
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    Just to be absolutely clear - boosts have been shown time and time again not to impact MMR.

    I know intuitively it would make more sense and be fairer if they did, but they don’t. 

    It’s for this reason that the early 4* transition is such a jolt - if you don’t have a broad range champed you are left with weeks where you really struggle for match-ups.
  • hstpctech
    hstpctech Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    HoundofShadow said:
    These are the factors that affect your overall PvP MMR:

    1) the levels of the three characters in the first row, including featured characters, after boost. I heard that if you roster 5* but did not level them up, they won't affect your PvPs. However, you will still see 2* or 3* players with 5* characters because they got lucky and drew 5*. 

    2) Which time slice you join (more important for SCL 7-10). SCL 6 and below can ignore this.

    3) your PvP scores

    4) When you start climbing PvPs.

    Climbing the first and last 8 hours of PvPs is generally not a good idea. Go to youtube and google for "The Jerusalem Sequence in World War Z". Look at the scene starting from 1min10sec to 1 min14 sec. This is how things typically look like in the first and last 8 hours of PvPs when you try to climb high.

    If you are interested in only progression rewards using the least amount of win, I recommend joining PvPs when they begin but play them when the timer shows 1d 1X hrs. By then, opponents are worth more points, and fewer players are climbing. 

    In the beginning, matchmaking is typically based on Factor 1. Based on my exp, PvPs are generally easier when you don't have that featured character rostered, like new 4* or 5* releases, or 3* when you are in 3* land.

    Depending on when you hit 800 point in PvP, MMR will take a drastic change. For example, when I was in 3* land and I climbed to 800+ point in the last 8 hours or so, I'm getting matched with champed 4*. In 4* land, I can hit 1000 comfortably.

    If you are a 3* player, aim for 800 points in SCL 6. It should net you top 5 placement, unless things have changed.

    1. The three highest are 5-star 360, 330, 315. 43 champed 3-star, but none is maxed. 1 champed 4-star, also not maxed.
    2. I'm locked between SCL7-10, so naturally I usually choose SCL7.
    3. I mostly end the PVP between 600-700. When I grind hours before the end, then I could reach 725 if I'm lucky.
    4. I climb very early in the first hour, then in and out during the day until the end of PVP.

    My goal is to just get the rewards and be done with it. I need to spent good efforts to reach 25 win, and sometimes I ran out of time. I always got the rewards by rounds won instead of PVP point.

    My problem started when I pulled out all of my CP last week. At the time I was doing just fine with my 3-stars roster, getting in the top 50 when I put efforts.

    But now after getting 3 legendaries, I always got pitted against championed 4 and 5 even early in the round. Adding insults to the wound, those high leveled rounds reward is only 7 point.

    This has taken quite some steam out of me.


  • BlixTheFrog
    BlixTheFrog Posts: 190 Tile Toppler
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    _Vitto said:
    No, it does not affect match-making.

    It does affect your visibility: if I join a lower CL it's less likely that players with a comparable roster will be there. This means that it's less likely that these players will see me on leaderboards and eventually look for me, thus I may get less hits.

    People actually do that ? 
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
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    The thing about leaderboards is they also effectively tell you how many points you’ll get if you see someone who is in T20 say.

    If it’s a super-hard match and you can see they’re not much above you, you probably skip. If they’re hundreds of points above you it’s worth taking on a trickier enemy for more points. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2020
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    SCL doesn't affect your MMR. However, from SCL 7 onwards, the points needed to get top 10 placement rewards are unbelievable.  It was ~825 in SCL 6 to get to top 1 placement. 

    As for MMR accounting for boost, I might have mixed it up with champion featured character/loaner featured character and non-champs
    ed featured character.

    As for @hstpctech , I think you might have found the root cause of your problem: your highly levelled 5* characters. The easiest way to bring your MMR back to normal is to ditch them, but I won't do that. America Chavez or Karnak is the best option to ride it out. I think Chavez with ap boost will be faster to help you win matches.

    It is said that Slice 2 and 5 are the slices with the least amount of points. So, due to how high the scores are in the rest of the slice (at least 1600-2xxx), you might want to switch slices if you are in slice 2 or 5. Also, play the highest SCL. I don't think SCL 10 is opened to you yet.

    If you are seeing only 7 points for those high level teams in the early round, you were probably at T5 position. Try playing 1 to 1.5 day after the PvP has started to see if there is any change to those points earned in those teams.
  • Feliz
    Feliz Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
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    I used to do SCL 7 then went straight to 10 when it came in to play. NO DIFFERENCE except PRIZES ;)
  • hstpctech
    hstpctech Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    @HoundofShadow
    It was too late when I realized I hastily leveled the 5-star. For now Chavez is my only option since I only have one cover on Karnak.

    If by Slice you mean the timeslot, I've been stuck in the last timeslot because I tend to finish one PVP before I start another. As for the SCL, I can choose between SCL7 and SCL9. Do you really think I should play in SCL9?

    The 7 points matches, I was always barely hanging on in the top 50. By the end of the PVP, it's more often than not I got pushed down to top 100. In the current Danger Room PVP, I've met those 7 points matches several times already - 4-star champ and 5-star champ combo.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2020
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    The 2nd and 5th timeslot / Slice 2 and Slice 5 are known to have the lowest scoring in PvPs (SCL 7-10), which means you run out of high scoring targets faster generally speaking. Top 10 placements are typically 1200-1400 there. However, in other slices/timeslots, it's easily at least 2000 points.  It's quite surprising to see only 7 points when you are still in top 50 position. Are those red nodes or yellow nodes? I suspect it's red nodes because those nodes usually give fewer points and those who target you are usually players whose score are much lower than yours. Try skipping those red nodes to refresh your targets if they are not giving a lot of points.

    Go for SCL 9 since you are not playing for placement. It won't affect your MMR and your placement rewards should be slightly better if you can secure top 100. The reason why I suggest playing PvPs after 1 day or more if you don't care about placement rewards is because:

    1) targets are worth more points. More points means fewer wins needed. If your average point is 60 point per match, it will take you 12-13 wins to get the HP. If you average point is 40, it takes you 18-19 wins. When you are aiming for the 4* shards at 1000 points the number of wins needed is significant. It's 25-30 wins vs 50 wins based on my experience.

    2) fewer attacks are likely during your climb at this period.

    You have to find out your floating point, that is, on average, after taking into account those defensive losses in PvPs, how much point do you have left.  

    You can either do a burst to 725 or 800 points after 36 hours or you can play early and then split up your clear into two parts. Both worked for me. Try switching to slice 1, 3 or 4 to see if things get better.

    There are other technique used for an easier PvP. What you do is that you play right at the beginning of PvPs and you use a team of 1* or 2* characters and loaner character to clear those seed teams (team of loaner essential and two 1-star characters). When other players beat you, it will likely be 1* or 2* teams. Then, retaliate and beat them with the same 1* or 2* team. Do this back and forth and your wins will rack up quickly. I have tried this before and it does work, but it's not my kind of playstyle. However, once you start using your 5*, you will get matched with those champed 4*.

    In the meantime, try building up your 4* roster. It's going to be tough to ride this out but once you have a few more 4* champed, your PvP experience should be better. You got a good set of 5* (iHulk/Yelena/Apocalypse), so it will be a waste if you sell them away.

    I recommended America Chavez with ap boost so that you can capitalise on those 5* high match damage with critical tile by Chavez on turn 2 and finish matches more quickly. 
  • hstpctech
    hstpctech Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    @HoundofShadow
    I've just started the Pool Party PVP SCL7 earlier today in the last timeslot available. What you said about the top 10 points is very surprising. For the last couple of years, and certainly this year, I have never seen points far above 1,000 let alone 2,000. Only the top 5 reached 1,000 every once in a while.

    Currently I am at rank 25 with 383 points and 10 wins. The available matches are:
    - 3 4-stars champed for 28 points.
    - 2 5-stars/1 4-star champed Deadpool for 10 points.
    - 2 3-stars/1 4-star champed lvl 393 Deadpool for 45 points.

    All these against my top 3 in the roster: lvl 300 4-star Deadpool, lvl 360 5-star Hulk, and lvl 330 5-star Apocalypse.

    I have no idea at all regarding the red and yellow nodes. Would you please explain a bit further? After I finished this PVP, I will try my hand on SCL9 as you suggested.

    My best efforts when doing burst matches would be around 650 or 700 tops, back in the 3-star land without the 3 latest 5-stars.

    If by seed teams you meant those low leveled 2 1-stars teams, then I want to say sometimes they don't show up at all. I thought if I start right on time they would appear, but this is not always the case. I will try to pit my 2-stars in the next PVP since I only have one 1-star.

    In the current state of my roster, going forward the farming will be so much more annoying, especially since the cycling time of 5-star heroes is north of 10 hours. If I remember correctly, with the 3 and even 4 pre-champed heroes I can play every 3 hours or so with a fresh roster.

    I completely agree with you that the 3 latest legendaries are very good indeed. Yelena/Apocalypse combo is very powerful, and you can team Hulk up with just about anyone with high durability. I am trying to level up Chavez, but the long refresh time of Hulk is still seriously holding me back from doing burst matches.

    It seems that I should be focusing on champing the 3-stars for now, but the high leveled 5-stars are dragging me down with tough matches.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    When you first enter PvPs, those three nodes are usually yellow/orange. When someone attack you and defeat you, the node will turn red. This is also known as the retaliation node. Usually, those red nodes aren't worth a lot of points. That might explain why you are seeing 7, 10 or 18 points. Skip those nodes and you should see points worth at least 30.

    I think you need to enter the PvP immediately to see those seed nodes. You won't see them if you enter the PvP late.

    I think PvE will be a better place to build your roster. If you decided to this, focus on R4G first, get him champed, followed by Juggernaut. It's a guarantee that you will blaze through PvEs (SCL 7 and below) (within 30 minutes) if you are doing optimal clear.
  • hstpctech
    hstpctech Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    @HoundofShadow
    Ah now I got what are the nodes you were talking about. I have been skipping a lot more ever since, burning the ISOs in the hundreds. Winning a round usually only net me 70 ISO, so I'm in deficit ISO wise.

    For the past couple of months, I've always been starting my timeslot immediately and on-time. But it wasn't a guarantee to get the seed teams. Once, I've got ten of them so it was a free ticket towards my 25 wins goal.

    May I ask who R4G is? Currently, I know one of the best hero/villain to overcome Ultimate Hulk is Juggernaut so he's definitely on my to-do list.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    i think your opponents seem manageable. It's probably their high hp that makes you think twice about hitting them. If you are bleeding iso-8 from skipping teams, then I think you might want to consider other strategy.  In the next PVP event, would it be possible to list down 10 teams and their levels that you are seeing? 

    I'm not 100% about the availability of seed teams. Other players reported not seeing seed teams sometimes even though they entered as soon as possible. I guess some other players are just faster. 

    How does your roster look like? Did you enter your roster into MPQ Gamependium?

    R4G is 4* Rocket & Groot.  R4G, (any member from Guardian of the Galaxy) and Juggernaut is currently the meta/speed team for PvEs in 4* land.

    The general advice is to build your 2*, followed by 3*, then 4* roster. 2* farming will help you to generate various resources so that you can progress a little faster.

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