Definition of the day... 'Balance'

Tremayne

@LoboX01 - sigh, just sigh!

where to start with your post.

Let begin with loosing to Kalemne, I have so far chosen her in each instance of the DvK events. Because it is a no brainer compared to Daxos.

Sure let us imagine a lot of things and then everything seems reasonable.

Since this thread focus on DvK, then yes Kalemne is overpowered compared to Daxos.

Now your response is no changes, but some of the proposals have focused on improving Daxos instead of nerfing Kalemne, why don’t you focus on the and stop being so defensive on Kalemne? Simply say, you think it is Daxos that is the problem.

You are correct that Koth 1st is one of the best 1st abilities, funnily enough that has also been discussed many times on these forums, so I feel your argument sounds a lot like; if something is unbalanced, make the rest equally unbalanced and then all is good.

If that is correct then I simply disagree with you.

Avahad

I think adding Suppresion Bonds to Daxos pre built deck would be a very helpful start (and it fits with the Aura/Enchantment side of things).

Then think about adding support removal.

Bil

As mentioned earlier, the first thing to do with daxos is to change his first skill mechanic. That would be good for both duel deck and daxos in general.
As it is now his first IS counter intuitive ... In most cases the creature will debuff itself at the end of turn ... Which IS definitely disappointing in an aura-oriented build.

TomB

Bil said:

As mentioned earlier, the first thing to do with daxos is to change his first skill mechanic. That would be good for both duel deck and daxos in general.
As it is now his first IS counter intuitive ... In most cases the creature will debuff itself at the end of turn ... Which IS definitely disappointing in an aura-oriented build.

Maybe they should look at making his 1st a support instead of a creature, that buffs his first creature in a similar manner. That aligns it with the other PW's introduced at around the same time, and keeps the spirit of the creature's effects going. Add in a card for support control, and another for spot removal (or maybe just Mortify) and perhaps Suppression Bonds, and see what happens then.

LoboX01

Stormcrow said:

Man proposing to nerf Kalemne sure got everybody all riled up. Seems a little overly defensive of a reaction IMO. And it'd be far from the first time a Planeswalker was nerfed, even one that people had paid for. "I think it's fun" is not, and has never been, a good reason not to nerf something.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear some more proposals on how to get the DvK event actually balanced. You want to do it solely by buffing Daxos? Okay, let's hear some proposed Daxos reworks that will let him actually stand a chance in the event.

Maybe because the original proposal of nerfing her in general seems a little overly reaction IMO.

"I think it's fun" is not a good reason not to nerf, OK. The event is not balanced, so instead of fixing the event, and nerf the PW in general, is not a good reason to nerf.

I did not say anything about buffing Daxos, actually I don't agree with the opinion how much he sucks in general. In the event is he the weak side? Yeah, but it is because of the starter deck, and the limitations in the duel phase. I think there could be real fun decks with him if you have access all your cards. He can clean the table with his ult, and have access to more lifelink, so is better in real standard than in the event.

Fix the starter deck, or the objectives for him, change the permanent support for him, give Extinguish all hope a flash ability, give access to more cards in duel as a starter.

BTW, I finished the challenge part in both events for both sides, without any problem. Sure enough, I had one match with Daxos, where it dragged long, one, not all of it. In the first event, I actually picked him, and won all my matches in the duel phase.

If people feel that Daxos is much more work in the duel phase, fix that instead of nerfing Kalemne in general. 

@Tremayne

You asked for abilities as an example, I gave you some.

You are right, the focus should be on the event, but fixing that problem is different than talking about nerfing in general. I did not see one valid reason to nerf Kalemne outside of the event. Maybe Koth was discussed, not lately, oh BTW I don't remember discussing Garruk , or Brokhan when he came out.

So yes, this thread should be focusing on DvK, and my apologies if I IMO the fix is not nerfing in general. Or what, do we want to create equal planeswalkers now? Sorry, but I don't see her being so overwhelming outside of the event, I don't run into her every second match, I don't lose to her every single match.

Fix the event, if that is the problem. Daxos is more work for sure, is it impossible? No, but people like the easier way, just like you said, you picked her in each instance, because it is no brainer. Well I picked both once, so I have experience with both. Challenge phase was a little longer with Daxos, after that I can build my own deck. There are ways to fix the event, but nerfing Kalemne overall is not a good solution IMO. Cause you can start the argument which other PWs needs to be "fixed".

Scydrex7

I have a different set of potential solutions to offer here, that are not as complicated as trying to rebalance cards or walker abilities.

How about:
A Giving the winning side's player the option to choose either exclusive card. This way you're not forced to choose a side you do not enjoy playing just to get the reward you covet.

or B  Awarding the corresponding exclusive card to each side regardless of whether they win or not. Then no one would feel bad about choosing the side that's considered weakest, even if they get less gems and crystals overall.

This simple change could also be implemented for the Zendikar vs Eldrazi event. Isn't the ultimate purpose here to have all player own all four cards? It's not as if any of them are going to break or unbalance the game.

Kalazan

@Scydrex7 excellent suggestions! I like both of the approaches.

Gunmix25

critman said:

Stormcrow said:

Change Kalemne's 1st ability to cost 6 mana. Or possibly more, but 6 for a start. Reduce the XP gain provided by her 3rd ability to 5 or 6, and/or make it cost 21 loyalty.

Is the answer really to make Kalemne less strong? Is he too powerful? Certainly he's powerful, but I don't see evidence that he's too powerful.

Changing Kalemne's deck in the event, or changing Daxos' deck in the event, or making Daxos more powerful as a PW, would all seem to be preferable.

In the event, Kalemne is insanely powerful by comparison to Daxos. This is evident in the cards made available to both PW. Kalemne has more viable cards available. Daxos does not. To add more insult to the injury, Daxos has Black market and yet there are very few destroy based spells available to him in this event. A ton of exile... but that doesn't trigger Black market. 

In the events outside of duels, I find that Daxos is far more powerful than Kalemne; even without his two new masterpieces. He's my favorite PW at the moment. But in defense of Kalemne, Daxos has a plethora of removal whereas she is primarily exile or damage. Maybe this was apparent to the devs and the over adjusted Daxos thinking they were creating a balance? Pure guess on my part as I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that this needs to be reworked to give some balance. The comments above about having difficulty getting past the 2nd match encourages players to switch to Kalemne is enlightening and informative. It explains why Kalemne still had a large following even with players whom already won the prize earlier on. 

JamesGam

I can say without any doubt, Kal doesn't need to be nerfed.

I could tell you all the reasons; but, lets not waste time. Here is the jist: Although she is powerful in her specialty (face-bashing), she is vulnerable outside of her specialty (mainly control). 

On the hand, I can see the point about her 1st ability perhaps being a bit on the cheaper end of things. This probably becomes more pronounced depending on which other PW you wish to compare her to. But despite all this, I still feel Kal is not as much the problem as the pre-constructed decks are for the duel decks. Kal has both the strength and control options to fend off Daxos (for the most part). Daxos has a lack of both strength and control options to recover from a strong start by Kal.

P.S. And from what I hear, Daxos is a good PW (Mines still lvl1... so I can't attest to it 100%)

Gunmix25

JamesGam said:

I can say without any doubt, Kal doesn't need to be nerfed.

I could tell you all the reasons; but, lets not waste time. Here is the jist: Although she is powerful in her specialty (face-bashing), she is vulnerable outside of her specialty (mainly control). 

On the hand, I can see the point about her 1st ability perhaps being a bit on the cheaper end of things. This probably becomes more pronounced depending on which other PW you wish to compare her to. But despite all this, I still feel Kal is not as much the problem as the pre-constructed decks are for the duel decks. Kal has both the strength and control options to fend off Daxos (for the most part). Daxos has a lack of both strength and control options to recover from a strong start by Kal.

P.S. And from what I hear, Daxos is a good PW (Mines still lvl1... so I can't attest to it 100%)

No Kalemne definitely does not need a nerf. She is strong but like Nahiri strong. If you don't act early on, you will get stomped. Both Daxos and Kalemne are designed for the long game because experience cannot be removed in any way so it's veritable suicide to draw out a match with either PW. Especially so with Daxos. Once he is past 30 experience it's going to be an almost impossible fight to take him down. Kalemne and Ashiok are among the few whom can. 

I won't lie, Daxos is just a mean troll outside the event imho. I cannot tell you how many times I've played him and just tapped into his 3rd loyalty over and over and over and over.  
Greg just struggles to overcome the massive life recovery rate and damage out put on his creatures. 

Anyways, back to the discussion. The problem lies with card availability imho. Both PW are viable but good lord is Daxos reigned in and chained up. Kalemne by association is the opposite... oh! Big creature this, big creature that! Exile this exile that, big fast ... the list goes on and on. Though the recommendation  made earlier in this thread that Daxos gets experience amount of mana when firing the 3rd loyalty sounds very juicy. So so very juicy.