Definition of the day... 'Balance'

Gunmix25Gunmix25 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
edited 7 June 2020, 19:46 in MtGPQ General Discussion
Balance 
noun
1. a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

2. What doesn't exist in Daxos vs Kalemne.

The problem the first duels event recurs here as well. Maybe add a set and fix that mana problem, ...again... for realsies?
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Comments

  • Bubbles_CSBubbles_CS Posts: 169 Tile Toppler
    Kalemne is strongly preferred in this event. I would like to see players randomly assigned to a side or some other form of balance.
  • StormcrowStormcrow Posts: 362 Mover and Shaker
    Change Kalemne's 1st ability to cost 6 mana. Or possibly more, but 6 for a start. Reduce the XP gain provided by her 3rd ability to 5 or 6, and/or make it cost 21 loyalty.

    Change Daxos' Eidolon of Longing so that it only changes its power and toughness to equal your experience if that will increase its power and toughness. Or change it so that the creature's base power and toughness become equal to your experience and it keeps any other buffs on top of that. It's very silly that the buffs from all the auras you're expected to run in a Daxos deck all disappear a turn after you cast them on your token guy.

    Last and maybe most importantly: the pre-made decks that we're given to use before we've picked a side? They need a rework, because Daxos's deck in the first stage of the event is hot garbage. You have a boardwipe that could be totally one-sided in a better deck but in this deck it kills your own best creature and your own token stacks; you have no Flash creature removal (against a deck where almost everything will be hasted); and you have no support removal of any kind so if Kalemne pops her 3rd ability, you lose. Seriously??? After those first few fights with those preconstructed decks it's no wonder the casual players flock to Kalemne.
  • VolrakVolrak Posts: 669 Critical Contributor
    Kalemne is strongly preferred in this event. I would like to see players randomly assigned to a side or some other form of balance.
    Yes, in the second time through half the players already had the Kalemne mythic, but still there was no real detectable shift of people switching to chase the Daxos mythic.

    However I don't think random assignment would solve the problem.  Most people seem to find Daxos both harder to use and less fun.  So I suspect Kalemne would still win, the only difference perhaps being that players would no longer get to choose who they played with.

    Some balance change ideas:
    • Change Daxos's 1st ability to add 2 experience instead of 1 for each effect which gives experience
    • Change Daxos's 2nd ability to initially destroy the top 2 or 4 cards of your library, in addition to its other effects
    • Change Daxos's ult to give X mana in addition to its other effects
    Would these changes go too far?  Not far enough?  What about improving Daxos's deck for the challenge phase, any specific suggestions there?

    There's also a thread for ideas on spreading the wins around in DD events here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/82194/ideas-thread-winning-side-in-duel-decks#latest.  But those ideas are more around going the last mile once the balance between the sides is close to right.  It still seems way off for DvK.
  • RasalghulRasalghul Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    I’m hearing that some players can’t even unlock Daxos because the second objective of the first phase is too hard. 

    Changing the starting deck or the objectives for Daxos would at least allow players to use him. 
  • ZethishZethish Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
    Rasalghul said:
    I’m hearing that some players can’t even unlock Daxos because the second objective of the first phase is too hard. 

    Changing the starting deck or the objectives for Daxos would at least allow players to use him. 

    Agreed. The pre-made deck is... how should I put this... the opposite of great  :smile:
    A deck that better shows the strength of this PW would go a long way.

    The most fun I've had with Daxos is in combination with Ikoria cards, especially Kelsien, so I would be in favor of including Ikoria in the card pool as well.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 206 Tile Toppler
    Rasalghul said:
    I’m hearing that some players can’t even unlock Daxos because the second objective of the first phase is too hard. 

    Changing the starting deck or the objectives for Daxos would at least allow players to use him. 

    I failed in my first attempt to get past the 2nd objective and since my fail was so complete I figured I'd just switch over to Kalemne because it wasn't worth the aggravation of trying to win with such a horrible deck. Considering all the cheap black kill spells available in Standard and the garbage in that deck I found myself just not in the mood for that kind of challenge.
  • RasalghulRasalghul Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    edited 8 June 2020, 11:17
    I don’t know if the wins from the 1st phase count towards the final result but what if both PW are unlocked for the final dual phase ?

    Players who can’t unlock either PW or even both would still play for the final battle but they won’t receive the individual rewards. We can also increase the incentives to play the first 2 phases by increasing their rewards but lowering the final dual phase rewards, so their total amount stay the same as today.

    If nothing is done, everybody will always choose Kalemne, get Kalemne’s mythic and Daxos mythic will never be used. It would be a waste to create a card that nobody, no even VIPs can play with.
  • critmancritman Posts: 389 Mover and Shaker
    Stormcrow said:
    Change Kalemne's 1st ability to cost 6 mana. Or possibly more, but 6 for a start. Reduce the XP gain provided by her 3rd ability to 5 or 6, and/or make it cost 21 loyalty.
    Is the answer really to make Kalemne less strong? Is he too powerful? Certainly he's powerful, but I don't see evidence that he's too powerful.

    Changing Kalemne's deck in the event, or changing Daxos' deck in the event, or making Daxos more powerful as a PW, would all seem to be preferable.
  • madwrenmadwren Posts: 2,022 Chairperson of the Boards
    Stormcrow said:


    Change Daxos' Eidolon of Longing so that it only changes its power and toughness to equal your experience if that will increase its power and toughness. Or change it so that the creature's base power and toughness become equal to your experience and it keeps any other buffs on top of that. It's very silly that the buffs from all the auras you're expected to run in a Daxos deck all disappear a turn after you cast them on your token guy.
    I find his token to be a rather disappointing design choice because it isn't synergistic with his supposed goal.  Here you have a planeswalker whose ostensible goal is to cast enchantments and auras--usually ones that buff--and yet if you actually use his first ability, you're essentially neutering all of those buffs (and thereby your deck).  You're turning +3's and +4's into +1's. 

    Anyway, I played Daxos again. The first go-round I found it a pain in the rear, but this time I won all my games fairly easily. Once you get used to the rhythms of his decks and abilities, it isn't quite as bad. It's just that Kalemne's first two abilities, coupled with the node support, create an "I win" mechanism that can simply dominate matches.  Daxos isn't a nimble planeswalker and can be overwhelmed. 




  • AmpersandAmpersand Posts: 147 Tile Toppler
    I had no issues with Daxos this time around. I don't think his abilities are a problem - outside of the DvK event, he is a versatile PW that can be very very strong in the current Standard. 

    I think changing his pre-made deck might help, or maybe changing some of the effects of the permanent gems. Maybe even changing some of the objectives. I do not think changing attributes of the PWs Daxos or Kalemne is the right move.
  • FindingHeart8FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,671 Chairperson of the Boards
    No to nerfing Kalemne, people like myself paid real money for the ability to acquire her.  Nerfing her would be bad business (Remember the outrage from Lotus nerf in the Karn purchase package)

    Yes to boosting Daxos.  He's not bad, but a late game PW, putting him at a heavy disadvantage to a faster PW like Kalemne.

    Maybe to boosting deck? Personally I feel that Daxos deck is better than Kalamne, but it could be it just doesn't work optimally with my playstyle.
  • bken1234bken1234 GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 2,831 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daxos is simply unfun to play with. I bought him when we had the first DvK and after using him in that event, I haven’t even bothered to level him. I don’t see any use for him or any reason I would build a fun deck with him. I don’t want to use him anywhere, much less ever again in DvK, and he couldn’t stand up to Kalemne there. I only had one loss, but the matches were so long and arduous it made me hate the event so much I didn’t play it this time. 

    Kalemne on the other hand is fun. I use her every time I play standard TG, often building new decks. I have used her in both standard PvP events (Ttn this weekend, perfectly) and legacy PVE. And I would want to play her in DvK if I could stomach it. 

    Power aside, for me it’s simply a fun PW versus a really, really terrible one. 
  • LoboX01LoboX01 Posts: 25 Just Dropped In
    Stormcrow said:
    Change Kalemne's 1st ability to cost 6 mana. Or possibly more, but 6 for a start. Reduce the XP gain provided by her 3rd ability to 5 or 6, and/or make it cost 21 loyalty.


    Yeah, sure, if something is bad, make the other side worse...
  • StormcrowStormcrow Posts: 362 Mover and Shaker
    edited 8 June 2020, 17:32
    My proposed nerfs to Kalemne weren't just based on comparing her to Daxos, but comparing her to literally every other PW in the game. Her first ability, in particular, does a lot more than most first abilities and is also cheaper in loyalty cost.

    I know there's always gonna be some power creep in terms of PWs, but seriously: fetch a creature and play a support that gives your first creature haste and buffs and experience gain, all for four loyalty? Seriously, what other PW's first ability compares to that? It would still be an above-average ability as a second ability. And I'll proposing is the loyalty cost go up to 6 - still cheaper than say, Bolas 1's 1st ability - and you'd think I proposed nerfing her into the ground.
  • KalazanKalazan Posts: 60 Match Maker
    How about stop ruining other players' fun? If you think Kalemne too powerful and feel unbalanced. Feel free to choose other PWs. 

    How about focusing how to boots Daxos and make him can match up with Kalemne, In this case, it will give us a more fun PW to play with. Or at least a more balanced duel event.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,112 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Kalazan - so you think a Kalemne is balanced? Feel free to list PWs that has comparable 1st abilities to Kalemne or 2nd abilities if that would help.
  • critmancritman Posts: 389 Mover and Shaker
    I do feel we're getting hung up on first abilities here. 

    Brokhan, for example, has a diabolically bad first ability, but his third sure makes up for it, plus his access to the mana boosting colors blue and green.
  • AvahadAvahad Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker
    critman said:
    I do feel we're getting hung up on first abilities here. 

    Brokhan, for example, has a diabolically bad first ability, but his third sure makes up for it, plus his access to the mana boosting colors blue and green.

    Actually- since they buffed broKhans AB1 to last 6 turns its become very useful. Especially as he can hit it pretty regularly with the aforementioned green/blue combi and he has access to lots of multi coloured cards to make good use of the boost.
    It’s really good when stalling to hit objectives I quite often have his mana gains at +7s until I’m ready to go for Ab3 and the win.
  • LoboX01LoboX01 Posts: 25 Just Dropped In
    Stormcrow said:
    My proposed nerfs to Kalemne weren't just based on comparing her to Daxos, but comparing her to literally every other PW in the game. Her first ability, in particular, does a lot more than most first abilities and is also cheaper in loyalty cost.

    I know there's always gonna be some power creep in terms of PWs, but seriously: fetch a creature and play a support that gives your first creature haste and buffs and experience gain, all for four loyalty? Seriously, what other PW's first ability compares to that? It would still be an above-average ability as a second ability. And I'll proposing is the loyalty cost go up to 6 - still cheaper than say, Bolas 1's 1st ability - and you'd think I proposed nerfing her into the ground.

    That was only part of your original proposal, not all of it.

    Tremayne said:
    @Kalazan - so you think a Kalemne is balanced? Feel free to list PWs that has comparable 1st abilities to Kalemne or 2nd abilities if that would help.

    It looks like you lost to Kalemne too much as well.

    Let's say she got a crazy cascade, kick in her 3rd in turn 1, if you don't have any critters in hand then what?

    Let's say Brokhan got a crazy cascade, kick in his 3rd ability in turn 1 with GR in deck, who is overpowered now?

    Is Kalemne a strong PW? Yes, she is. Is she crazy out of balance? No she isn't. I've played with her now for a while, and yes, she can win fast if all goes well, but not in turn 1, 2 or 3 (except some extremes).

    On the other hand, did not lose to her any more than average. Actually lost more to Garruk, then her. Once, my Kalemne deck got kicked in the back by Koth and Embercleave, now what? Should I come here and cry for nerf?

    Abilities? Let's see, how about Koth 1st, Garruk 2nd, Domri 2nd, Narset 2nd.

    She is good, like REAL good, but again, not that good to hit the Quit button right away when I am facing her.

    Or did you have problem winning too fast? Well, as others said, use another PW if you like slower matches.
  • StormcrowStormcrow Posts: 362 Mover and Shaker
    edited 9 June 2020, 00:47
    Man proposing to nerf Kalemne sure got everybody all riled up. Seems a little overly defensive of a reaction IMO. And it'd be far from the first time a Planeswalker was nerfed, even one that people had paid for. "I think it's fun" is not, and has never been, a good reason not to nerf something.

    Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear some more proposals on how to get the DvK event actually balanced. You want to do it solely by buffing Daxos? Okay, let's hear some proposed Daxos reworks that will let him actually stand a chance in the event.
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