Should CL10 pve be renamed CL Thorokoye?

grunth13

Hi,  my name is Riddlemaster and I'm a MPQaholic.  I just find it interesting that I have 11 550s, another 4 510+ level and am still getting beat on my opening clears by 460 to 500 level Okoyes.  There are times when I struggle against the challenge node with max level boosts,  so I start my end grind earlier,  but these 460 to 500 Okoye rosters are breezing through them without a hitch, hiccup,  blip,  etc while starting a few minutes after me.   What's the point of spending to get one of the highest ranked rosters in the game and still lose because I didn't 550 Okoye.   Btw, before anyone says I should just champ mine,  I'll say that mine is 484 level.   So by no means is my Okoye small,  it's just that with my Thor being 550, my Okoye is basically useless until I 550 it.   It just feels like a slap in the face.  Anyways,  thanks for letting me share. 

HoundofShadow

Now that you have identified your challenges, what can the dev do to solve them? 

MadScientist

Make a dupe lvl 45x Thor?

PiMacleod

wow.... why is there 5 flags for that ONE comment?!?!  and it wasn't even a harsh comment!  It's pretty matter-of-fact, and is an honest question, with no slang or slander.  I don't think @HoundofShadow deserves that

HoundofShadow

I'm pretty shocked at that.

This guy made a thread stating that he has 11 550 5*(including Thor) and I don't know if he is unhappy about:

1)  players who are using Thorokoye cleared the nodes faster than him and their Okoyes' levels are between 460-500 OR

2) it's boring to clear SCL 10 with Thorokoye

3) Thorokoye is clearing nodes faster than his 550 characters

He stated that his Okoye is 484, which is higher than some of those who are clearing faster than him, and he said level 550 Okoye is necessary to beat this group of people, which is contradicting because of point 1. 

After I read that, I'm left confused because I don't what's the takeway of the thread. Does he:

1) wants Thor to be nerfed?

2) wants Okoye to be nerfed?

3) want to ban Thorkoye from SCL 10?

4) wants the dev to buff his older 550 5*?

Or is it simply a rant thread and no action is needed?

Usually, when players are unhappy about certain characters or metas, they will identify the problematic teams and propose solutions to solve their problems, even if their solutions aren't implemented.

For example, Gritty is problematic. They will elaborate on why and then they will propose some solutions that they hope to be implemented. For example, they will usually request R4G to be nerfed. Some will go a few step further suggesting something like reducing the number of strike tiles or change R4G's ability to create a repeater that put one strike tiles per turn, up to x numbers. This is how discussion are created.

fight4thedream

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bluewolf

I'd assume (?) that the OP has a 550 Thanos who was used a lot before SCL10 made him basically pointless, besides maybe through the E3 or H1 nodes.  Once he can't one-shot stuff he becomes pretty slow.

It's possible, maybe, that the devs might adjust some of the difficulty in SCL10 at some point.  However, I don't expect that Thorkoye will stop being the goto lynchpin for clears due to the unique synergy they provide, and the devs have leaned much more in the direction of building the defensive meta vs adding to the offensive tools we have.

And I don't expect them to adjust ALL the difficulty down, and I don't expect that Thanos-ing SCL10 will ever be a thing.

I think the design philosophy is to provide some level of puzzley-ness.  Maybe some future 5 will provide the same functionality of Thorkoye or a different way to boost your performance.

This is a mobile game that is intended to keep going (keep players spending) and even spending thousands of dollars will not result in a permanent advantage.  Even without directly nerfing a character, we can see that they can change the value of characters significantly by providing harder content or new meta characters.

Obviously Apocalypse will be in the meta mix and maybe he will be good enough with Kitty and Bill, or something, to approach a higher level and faster clears.  Certainly a big one will be doing massive match dmg.

It would suck to have spent a lot of money on the game for the environment/competitive advantage you thought you would get and have the devs upend that.

Vhailorx

grunth13 said:

Hi,  my name is Riddlemaster and I'm a MPQaholic.  I just find it interesting that I have 11 550s, another 4 510+ level and am still getting beat on my opening clears by 460 to 500 level Okoyes.  There are times when I struggle against the challenge node with max level boosts,  so I start my end grind earlier,  but these 460 to 500 Okoye rosters are breezing through them without a hitch, hiccup,  blip,  etc while starting a few minutes after me.   What's the point of spending to get one of the highest ranked rosters in the game and still lose because I didn't 550 Okoye.   Btw, before anyone says I should just champ mine,  I'll say that mine is 484 level.   So by no means is my Okoye small,  it's just that with my Thor being 550, my Okoye is basically useless until I 550 it.   It just feels like a slap in the face.  Anyways,  thanks for letting me share. 

It is certainly true that damage boosters and sustainable teams (and stunlock) are more important than ever.  As I have said elsewhere, demi is in a bind with difficulty on cl10.  The only ways they have to make it challenging in any way also make it mostly impossible for all but a tiny handful of teams.  Not sure there is any way solution to the problem that wouldn't create other, equally big problems.

It sucks that you decided to 550 thor (were you chasing Gambit at the time?) and not okoye.  But there is basically ai always a risk in mpq that any resource allocation decision will be rendered suboptimal by later changes to the game. Just look at anyone who relied on a 500+ oml or Gambit.

I think your best bet now is almost certainly to target thor and build a 5/x/x dupe.  That will be much easier than chasing 50+ covers for okoye.

SnowcaTT

Wow! Sounds like a pretty sweet team!

I wonder if any future releases will replace it.

I wonder if in CL9 other teams were better, and were - in time - replaced.

I also wonder if the original poster has seen that team out in PVP lately. I haven't been seeing it much; have all the vets that used to use it retired?

.....or is it that maybe, just MAYBE the same exact team isn't the 'best' one in both PVP and PVE right now? That the team that 'was' best in either/or PVE and PVP is no longer, since more characters have come along? That power creep has made older characters - no matter their level - not as relevant as they once were?


(And should old characters be buffed? To see 'yes' over and over, go check out that thread!)

Tylander45

I have to agree with @grunth13.  I was just commenting to @The rockett this morning that SCL10 was a gift to all the players with okoye at level 500+.  If the devs looked at the stats of the highest placing players, I’d bet over 3/4’s of their matches include Okoye, even when they have higher level toons.  She’s the most overpowered 5s combined with any toon.

Dogface

Tylander45 said:

I have to agree with @grunth13.  I was just commenting to @The rockett this morning that SCL10 was a gift to all the players with okoye at level 500+.  If the devs looked at the stats of the highest placing players, I’d bet over 3/4’s of their matches include Okoye, even when they have higher level toons.  She’s the most overpowered 5s combined with any toon.

Yet PVP shows a different picture. I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in PVP. 

Vins2

Dogface said:

Tylander45 said:

I have to agree with @grunth13.  I was just commenting to @The rockett this morning that SCL10 was a gift to all the players with okoye at level 500+.  If the devs looked at the stats of the highest placing players, I’d bet over 3/4’s of their matches include Okoye, even when they have higher level toons.  She’s the most overpowered 5s combined with any toon.

Yet PVP shows a different picture. I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in PVP. 

Tylander didn't mention Thor + Okoye though, just Okoye with anyone.  I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in pvp too anymore, but because we all know they're sitting ducks, not because they're not incapable of winning.  

SnowcaTT

Vins2 said:

Dogface said:

Tylander45 said:

I have to agree with @grunth13.  I was just commenting to @The rockett this morning that SCL10 was a gift to all the players with okoye at level 500+.  If the devs looked at the stats of the highest placing players, I’d bet over 3/4’s of their matches include Okoye, even when they have higher level toons.  She’s the most overpowered 5s combined with any toon.

Yet PVP shows a different picture. I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in PVP. 

Tylander didn't mention Thor + Okoye though, just Okoye with anyone.  I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in pvp too anymore, but because we all know they're sitting ducks, not because they're not incapable of winning.  

I know -VERY WELL- (wink nudge) both Tylander And Riddlemaster rosters. Shoot, Tylander shares my PVE shard half the time, and beats me a fair bit. I don't disagree that Okoye is great in PVE CL10! And I know both of these veteran rosters were probably getting better placement in CL9...and they both still can!

This is what I was trying to sarcastically point out is this is another argument you get occasionally: "Hey, -my- characters aren't the best in PVE anymore, why not nerf (characters I don't have)?"

Now, both of those rosters will (and have) -destroyed with ease- that Thorkoye team that I've been playing in PVP for the last two  years. I haven't been here complaining that I have a PVP weakling - it is what I have, it's in part what I've chosen to play for and with. I know a couple of very similar rosters that went for Thorkoye over almost everything else - and they have an easy time in PVE and a hard time in PVP.

I think it's better to frame this argument as "The old characters aren't nearly as good as the new ones and need a buff!" (very valid!) OR "PVE is way, way too difficult and needs to be made easier so there is a broader option of characters that can be used to compete!" (also valid!)

Dougfresh413

Personally, I think the issue is you shouldn't "lose" to other players when you are playing PVE.  PVE is basically story mode and should not have rankings, particularly in the absence of a good way to rank people.  I won't digress into why I do not like regenerating points, speedy clears, etc because I don't know a better way to do it myself.  My point is I think PVE should simply be about beating the event itself, and if you can clear it all then you get all the rewards.  In a better world, the max progression point totals would be extended upward, the boss node would be added to all SCL's, the 2E returns to SCL10, and then the placement rewards would be sprinkled throughout the current progression rewards.  Not a lot of detail, but you get the concept.

Dogface

Vins2 said:

Dogface said:

Tylander45 said:

I have to agree with @grunth13.  I was just commenting to @The rockett this morning that SCL10 was a gift to all the players with okoye at level 500+.  If the devs looked at the stats of the highest placing players, I’d bet over 3/4’s of their matches include Okoye, even when they have higher level toons.  She’s the most overpowered 5s combined with any toon.

Yet PVP shows a different picture. I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in PVP. 

Tylander didn't mention Thor + Okoye though, just Okoye with anyone.  I hardly ever encounter Thorkoye in pvp too anymore, but because we all know they're sitting ducks, not because they're not incapable of winning.  

Fair point. But even just Okoye with 2 others is not something I regularly see. I use Okoye bc it's my only champ, but I encounter mostly teams with any Kitty combo in them, or that annoying Hawkeye/Worthy. 

HoundofShadow

I saw this somewhere before but I don't know how true it is: for players who get covers of 5* characters who are already at 550, they can swap it for other covers or their choice. If it is true, maybe he can wait for those special Legend stores where it features those 550 characters that he has to re-build a baby championed Thor. If not, he can see which support he can use to help Okoye tanks more colour(s) over Thor.

I don't think Okoye will get nerfed even though she is powerful, and she gets even more OP because of Thor. Over the history of MPQ, free ap generation is considered a broken ability, and 5 free ap per turn plus potential matches from tile destruction is OP. But, nerf either one and we'll have havoc again.

grunth13

HoundofShadow said:

I saw this somewhere before but I don't know how true it is: for players who get covers of 5* characters who are already at 550, they can swap it for other covers or their choice. If it is true, maybe he can wait for those special Legend stores where it features those 550 characters that he has to re-build a baby championed Thor. If not, he can see which support he can use to help Okoye tanks more colour(s) over Thor.

I don't think Okoye will get nerfed even though she is powerful, and she gets even more OP because of Thor. Over the history of MPQ, free ap generation is considered a broken ability, and 5 free ap per turn plus potential matches from tile destruction is OP. But, nerf either one and we'll have havoc again.

Only if it's in the latest... because i have 11 550s, every cover I get for them need to be used in a dupe.  Also,  levels should matter no matter when the character was came out.   A 460 level should not beat a 550 level.   It shouldn't be preferred.   Maybe 1 out of 10 times,  not 9 out of 10.  That's what I'm saying.   And it's not like I don't have newer characters at 550.  Hell,  I have px, storm,  kitty,  iceman and hela.   All of them came way after okoye, but none of them are in the same boat as okoye for cl10 pve, even when they are 90 levels higher. 

Vhailorx

grunth13 said:

HoundofShadow said:

I saw this somewhere before but I don't know how true it is: for players who get covers of 5* characters who are already at 550, they can swap it for other covers or their choice. If it is true, maybe he can wait for those special Legend stores where it features those 550 characters that he has to re-build a baby championed Thor. If not, he can see which support he can use to help Okoye tanks more colour(s) over Thor.

I don't think Okoye will get nerfed even though she is powerful, and she gets even more OP because of Thor. Over the history of MPQ, free ap generation is considered a broken ability, and 5 free ap per turn plus potential matches from tile destruction is OP. But, nerf either one and we'll have havoc again.

Only if it's in the latest... because i have 11 550s, every cover I get for them need to be used in a dupe.  Also,  levels should matter no matter when the character was came out.   A 460 level should not beat a 550 level.   It shouldn't be preferred.   Maybe 1 out of 10 times,  not 9 out of 10.  That's what I'm saying.   And it's not like I don't have newer characters at 550.  Hell,  I have px, storm,  kitty,  iceman and hela.   All of them came way after okoye, but none of them are in the same boat as okoye for cl10 pve, even when they are 90 levels higher. 

You say a 460 should not be a 550.  But context matters. we all regularly best level 650 opponents with < 500 teams in pve.  Some do it with 4* rosters. 

Clearly there is more in play here than raw levels.  Personally I think the problem with cl10 is that there are so few good damage boosters in the game.  Basically just okoye, kitty (+ strikes), and a few less practical options (DD purple etc).  Pre-apoc, no level 450 character could really come close to 50k damage with a single cast, and even apoc needs a little prep work to drop an 80k black or 50k red. So for cl10, where opponents can get to 300+k health, is no approprié that the efficient damage boosters play up.

Pongie

I’m using okyoke with ihulk and dr strange this event. It’s really quick against goons. Just collect team ups, ihulk does aoe and strange does targeted damage. 

HoundofShadow

I think he feels that lower level rosters shouldn't beat higher rosters in terms of speed clearing PvEs. Generally speaking, this is true if we look at all the available 5*.

However, out of 43 5* characters, up to 3 stands out: Okoye, iHulk and Apocalypse. I think they defy the belief where "level is everything". Besides level, skills and synergies play some part too. Even though it is a match-3 game, for challenging matches, what tiles to match require a little bit of skills.

grunth13

Vhailorx said:

grunth13 said:

HoundofShadow said:

I saw this somewhere before but I don't know how true it is: for players who get covers of 5* characters who are already at 550, they can swap it for other covers or their choice. If it is true, maybe he can wait for those special Legend stores where it features those 550 characters that he has to re-build a baby championed Thor. If not, he can see which support he can use to help Okoye tanks more colour(s) over Thor.

I don't think Okoye will get nerfed even though she is powerful, and she gets even more OP because of Thor. Over the history of MPQ, free ap generation is considered a broken ability, and 5 free ap per turn plus potential matches from tile destruction is OP. But, nerf either one and we'll have havoc again.

Only if it's in the latest... because i have 11 550s, every cover I get for them need to be used in a dupe.  Also,  levels should matter no matter when the character was came out.   A 460 level should not beat a 550 level.   It shouldn't be preferred.   Maybe 1 out of 10 times,  not 9 out of 10.  That's what I'm saying.   And it's not like I don't have newer characters at 550.  Hell,  I have px, storm,  kitty,  iceman and hela.   All of them came way after okoye, but none of them are in the same boat as okoye for cl10 pve, even when they are 90 levels higher. 

You say a 460 should not be a 550.  But context matters. we all regularly best level 650 opponents with < 500 teams in pve.  Some do it with 4* rosters. 

Clearly there is more in play here than raw levels.  Personally I think the problem with cl10 is that there are so few good damage boosters in the game.  Basically just okoye, kitty (+ strikes), and a few less practical options (DD purple etc).  Pre-apoc, no level 450 character could really come close to 50k damage with a single cast, and even apoc needs a little prep work to drop an 80k black or 50k red. So for cl10, where opponents can get to 300+k health, is no approprié that the efficient damage boosters play up.

You are right,  I do it regularly beat an ai team with my 550s vs 650s, but the 460s are beating that same 650 team faster.   As for 4 stars beating it,  yes,  there are gimmick teams and i have those too, but those guys aren't finishing faster than a 650.  The point isn't if they should beat the ai, but if a 460 roster should be faster than a 550 roster against the same team because their okoye was larger than their thor.   Remember,  thor came out first,  i 550d him over a year before okoye came out. That automatically makes my thor okoye incompatible until i get my okoye close to 550.  As for everyone that says i should just make a dupe thor... we have already hashed on these forums how crazy the luck would have to be for me to pull 13 thor in perfect color distribution.