Is skill more important than collection size?

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: [New Feature: Quest System] Would you also be interested in Coalition Quests?.

Pantagruel

Kinesia said:

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will.

Start a new account and play Return of the God Pharoah with it.

Kinesia

Pantagruel said:

Kinesia said:

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will.

Start a new account and play Return of the God Pharoah with it.

I did that last year. Level 34 Chandra beating Bolas after a 2 hour game was one of the best feelings in gaming.

Mburn7

Kinesia said:

Pantagruel said:

Kinesia said:

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will.

Start a new account and play Return of the God Pharoah with it.

I did that last year. Level 34 Chandra beating Bolas after a 2 hour game was one of the best feelings in gaming.

I think our definitions of a "best feeling" vastly differ 
But that is still seriously impressive, nice job!

bk1234

Kinesia said:

Pantagruel said:

Kinesia said:

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will.

Start a new account and play Return of the God Pharoah with it.

I did that last year. Level 34 Chandra beating Bolas after a 2 hour game was one of the best feelings in gaming.

Second, RotGP is one of the most fun events to beat with a new alt. 

FindingHeart8

Kinesia said:

FindingHeart8 said:

The part mentioned where VIP players get more rewards for the same amount of work is a big "NO" for me.  They get extra cards and crystals already.  This adaptation would make it even more pay-to-play.

I want to spend money on in-game content that I want and when I want it, not have a mandatory $30 monthly fee just to grind daily quests and remain completitive.

There is actually very little reason for VIP players to _stay_ subscribed and that money is probably needed for the future of the game so things like this are needed.
(Also... I have a budget for this but a limited one, so I'm currently VIP but could buy NONE of the cash deals like I used to, so I had none of the new planeswalkers until this sale, none of the exclusives, etc, etc, so only the really really rich are getting _everything_ straightaway. Like because they aren't in the sale I still can't get Wrenn&6 or new Bolas either.)

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will. Having a huge collection gives you options but does NOT become pay to win like other games. In recent events I was running pauper original Nissa against Bolas often and usually it wasn't a problem, because Greg is Greg...

I want quests because I currently avoid training grounds and the like because they are too dull, but a daily Quest on top of things makes me actually adjust my decks and brings the interest back.

Respectfully disagree with you on this.  Skill is a portion of the game, yes, but skill does not "ALWAYS" trump collection, I'd wager it doesn't even most of the time.

We're running simple 10 card decks, not 60 or 100.  A player with all the good cards merely has to lose a match or two to another player whose AI is using the cards effectively and go "Hey! I want to do that too," and copy it.

If you still disagree, try completing the "win with only commons and uncommons," objective against a player who is playing mythics only.  You might win some matches, but you'll find your win-loss ratio is not as high as it was before.

The only creative strategy I've experienced in this game since Ravnica is creating decks that play themselves, so I can get up and go make myself a sandwich.  I don't feel bad doing this because frankly 2-3 hours of grinding everyday is a chore.

bk1234

FindingHeart8 said:

Kinesia said:

FindingHeart8 said:

The part mentioned where VIP players get more rewards for the same amount of work is a big "NO" for me.  They get extra cards and crystals already.  This adaptation would make it even more pay-to-play.

I want to spend money on in-game content that I want and when I want it, not have a mandatory $30 monthly fee just to grind daily quests and remain completitive.

There is actually very little reason for VIP players to _stay_ subscribed and that money is probably needed for the future of the game so things like this are needed.
(Also... I have a budget for this but a limited one, so I'm currently VIP but could buy NONE of the cash deals like I used to, so I had none of the new planeswalkers until this sale, none of the exclusives, etc, etc, so only the really really rich are getting _everything_ straightaway. Like because they aren't in the sale I still can't get Wrenn&6 or new Bolas either.)

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will. Having a huge collection gives you options but does NOT become pay to win like other games. In recent events I was running pauper original Nissa against Bolas often and usually it wasn't a problem, because Greg is Greg...

I want quests because I currently avoid training grounds and the like because they are too dull, but a daily Quest on top of things makes me actually adjust my decks and brings the interest back.

Respectfully disagree with you on this.  Skill is a portion of the game, yes, but skill does not "ALWAYS" trump collection, I'd wager it doesn't even most of the time.

We're running simple 10 card decks, not 60 or 100.  A player with all the good cards merely has to lose a match or two to another player whose AI is using the cards effectively and go "Hey! I want to do that too," and copy it.

If you still disagree, try completing the "win with only commons and uncommons," objective against a player who is playing mythics only.  You might win some matches, but you'll find your win-loss ratio is not as high as it was before.

The only creative strategy I've experienced in this game since Ravnica is creating decks that play themselves, so I can get up and go make myself a sandwich.  I don't feel bad doing this because frankly 2-3 hours of grinding everyday is a chore.

I know at least 2 players who regularly play PvP Platinum events with pauper decks. They rock them. You will see them in the same win bracket they’re in when they use their full collection decks. I also consider these 2 players 2 of the absolute best in the game. I’ve been very successful with my alt with Orgins PW and pauper decks in Platinum against full scale decks. I’ve never gone for big prizes, but I have no problem making it to progression early. In fact, I frequently do better with my alt and it’s limited collection than I do with my main in events, because I’m forced to rely on my skill more than my flashy cards and PW. I have to edit myself. 

James13

Skill has become a lot less important as more and more "passive" effects have entered the gameplay.

You don't need much skill when you get big conversion cascades at the start of your turn or stuff thrown into play by Killer Instinct, etc.

Ordering of the hand, draw selection, etc are all still important, but where I was thinking carefully about match choices and what they set up in the early days I'm paying a lot less attention to now.

Speaking broadly from my perspective, the game has lost an awful lot of the "Puzzle Quest" aspect.

Julie71

Just in paper magic you could have all the cards available to you. If you don't know how to play, you lose. Now I would have to say those of us with a working knowledge of MTG before we joined mtgpq may have an advantage over someone who has no knowledge. But that's just my opinion.

Horadrim

Skill trumps collection size early in the game (bronze to gold tier). All of us started playing with Nissa and pauper decks. If you didn't have good skills, you wouldn't have won matches/events. If you haven't won matches/events, you wouldn't have acquired a good collection.

As one progresses to platinum, where most players have sizable collection and have similar skills (they wouldn't have progressed to platinum unless they won and mastered their collection), collection begins to trump skills. Two players in Platinum having the same skills, while one player has more access to better cards, the player with better cards has a better chance of winning.

Horadrim

Slightly off topic... it takes a very good skill to quit the game when you have a very good collection. I salute those players who already have done so.... and I might follow suit because of a holiday event currently deployed on its 3rd consecutive week that is still bugged (wrong number of charges, or SWW errors), and yet @Brigby CS still downplays... with players feeling like liars. 

Nalthazar

I think they're both important. I'll give the edge to skill over collection though. I was able to start earning perfect scores with a collection that was just commons and uncommons pretty early on. It has only gotten easier with a collection full of mythics and masterpieces, but I find that there are creative ways of using many of the commons/uncommons with specific planeswalkers and strategies that can be similarly effective in many situations. The collection definitely helps, but skill is very important too. 

Mburn7

Thanks to booster crafting and non-dupe mythics and rares and such collection is much less important than it used to be. 
Back when I started playing collection was much more important than skill, since most players only had a couple mythics each and some of them just could not be answered without other mythics (ah, the days when Scour from Existance was a staple).
Nowadays, everyone has pretty much every card anyway outside masterpieces and the newest set.  Gaia used to be a holy-****-what-do-I-do card when it dropped, now I just assume that every green deck I face has one (and I'm usually right).  With collection being more or less equal now, skill in deckbuilding and matchmaking (and card ordering and timing and targeting...ect) is the difference between winning and losing a lot of close matches.

Of course with how dumb Greg is and how often the game crashes/freezes/bugs out this is pretty irrelevant, unless you count crash avoidance as a skill (which it kind of is, I guess).  Also, with how long each match takes thanks to loading times and streamers and such I am loathe to take a long time thinking about each one of my turns like I used to, something I'm sure others agree with as well.

But that's just my 2 cents on this.  I've quite enjoyed just lurking and reading everyone else's responses so far 

FindingHeart8

bken1234 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Kinesia said:

FindingHeart8 said:

The part mentioned where VIP players get more rewards for the same amount of work is a big "NO" for me.  They get extra cards and crystals already.  This adaptation would make it even more pay-to-play.

I want to spend money on in-game content that I want and when I want it, not have a mandatory $30 monthly fee just to grind daily quests and remain completitive.

There is actually very little reason for VIP players to _stay_ subscribed and that money is probably needed for the future of the game so things like this are needed.
(Also... I have a budget for this but a limited one, so I'm currently VIP but could buy NONE of the cash deals like I used to, so I had none of the new planeswalkers until this sale, none of the exclusives, etc, etc, so only the really really rich are getting _everything_ straightaway. Like because they aren't in the sale I still can't get Wrenn&6 or new Bolas either.)

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will. Having a huge collection gives you options but does NOT become pay to win like other games. In recent events I was running pauper original Nissa against Bolas often and usually it wasn't a problem, because Greg is Greg...

I want quests because I currently avoid training grounds and the like because they are too dull, but a daily Quest on top of things makes me actually adjust my decks and brings the interest back.

Respectfully disagree with you on this.  Skill is a portion of the game, yes, but skill does not "ALWAYS" trump collection, I'd wager it doesn't even most of the time.

We're running simple 10 card decks, not 60 or 100.  A player with all the good cards merely has to lose a match or two to another player whose AI is using the cards effectively and go "Hey! I want to do that too," and copy it.

If you still disagree, try completing the "win with only commons and uncommons," objective against a player who is playing mythics only.  You might win some matches, but you'll find your win-loss ratio is not as high as it was before.

The only creative strategy I've experienced in this game since Ravnica is creating decks that play themselves, so I can get up and go make myself a sandwich.  I don't feel bad doing this because frankly 2-3 hours of grinding everyday is a chore.

I know at least 2 players who regularly play PvP Platinum events with pauper decks. They rock them. You will see them in the same win bracket they’re in when they use their full collection decks. I also consider these 2 players 2 of the absolute best in the game. I’ve been very successful with my alt with Orgins PW and pauper decks in Platinum against full scale decks. I’ve never gone for big prizes, but I have no problem making it to progression early. In fact, I frequently do better with my alt and it’s limited collection than I do with my main in events, because I’m forced to rely on my skill more than my flashy cards and PW. I have to edit myself. 

bken1234 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Kinesia said:

FindingHeart8 said:

The part mentioned where VIP players get more rewards for the same amount of work is a big "NO" for me.  They get extra cards and crystals already.  This adaptation would make it even more pay-to-play.

I want to spend money on in-game content that I want and when I want it, not have a mandatory $30 monthly fee just to grind daily quests and remain completitive.

There is actually very little reason for VIP players to _stay_ subscribed and that money is probably needed for the future of the game so things like this are needed.
(Also... I have a budget for this but a limited one, so I'm currently VIP but could buy NONE of the cash deals like I used to, so I had none of the new planeswalkers until this sale, none of the exclusives, etc, etc, so only the really really rich are getting _everything_ straightaway. Like because they aren't in the sale I still can't get Wrenn&6 or new Bolas either.)

A big BUT... skill ALWAYS trumps collection in this game and always will. Having a huge collection gives you options but does NOT become pay to win like other games. In recent events I was running pauper original Nissa against Bolas often and usually it wasn't a problem, because Greg is Greg...

I want quests because I currently avoid training grounds and the like because they are too dull, but a daily Quest on top of things makes me actually adjust my decks and brings the interest back.

Respectfully disagree with you on this.  Skill is a portion of the game, yes, but skill does not "ALWAYS" trump collection, I'd wager it doesn't even most of the time.

We're running simple 10 card decks, not 60 or 100.  A player with all the good cards merely has to lose a match or two to another player whose AI is using the cards effectively and go "Hey! I want to do that too," and copy it.

If you still disagree, try completing the "win with only commons and uncommons," objective against a player who is playing mythics only.  You might win some matches, but you'll find your win-loss ratio is not as high as it was before.

The only creative strategy I've experienced in this game since Ravnica is creating decks that play themselves, so I can get up and go make myself a sandwich.  I don't feel bad doing this because frankly 2-3 hours of grinding everyday is a chore.

I know at least 2 players who regularly play PvP Platinum events with pauper decks. They rock them. You will see them in the same win bracket they’re in when they use their full collection decks. I also consider these 2 players 2 of the absolute best in the game. I’ve been very successful with my alt with Orgins PW and pauper decks in Platinum against full scale decks. I’ve never gone for big prizes, but I have no problem making it to progression early. In fact, I frequently do better with my alt and it’s limited collection than I do with my main in events, because I’m forced to rely on my skill more than my flashy cards and PW. I have to edit myself. 

I mean, 2 players is an -incredibly- small sample-size to be pulling from, regardless of how good they are.

I've been of the opinion that, for the most part, skill level plateaus after a certain level of growth.  Most veteran players seem to win 95% or more of their matches, with game-losses mostly contributed to game-freezes, really bad luck with Greg cascading into 5 or more gem-matches on turn 1, or just flat-out their opponent having more powerful cards.

However, I think it is great that your challenging yourself, and that can probably lead to more game enjoyment. 

JohnnyXII

As long as there are net decks, skill has nothing to do with it.

jtwood

This game has two aspects to it:

1. Winning

2. Achieving Event Objectives

When it comes to just winning, there is no reason to even debate skill vs collection. The AI is so pathetically worthless that anyone should win at least 95%+ of the time, so maybe the difference between skill and collection is 97% win vs 98% win rates. It's such a non-discussion.

But when it comes to achieving event objectives, I think skill suddenly jumps way ahead of collection in this game. Think of an enraged event where you have to end with 20 or less life. Sure, collection will help a bit here. Having something like Lich's Mastery makes it easier to walk your life down to <20 with some comfort that you'll be able to lock things down long enough to pull out the victory. But it's that last part - walking things down properly under the stress of double damage - that cannot be achieved automagically simply with a great collection. You need to play the game a lot, fail repeatedly, and figure out how to achieve that objective properly.

Sure, most events don't have complicated objectives and can be achieved by even the greenest of players, but there are plenty of objectives in this game that definitely ask you to understand the flow of the game as much as having cards to achieve the objective.

Mburn7

JohnnyXII said:

As long as there are net decks, skill has nothing to do with it.

I disagree very much with this.  My old Drowner deck had a 99% win rate for me but would be significantly worse for someone else who didn't know how to play it.  I've seen a lot of decks posted by my coalition mates that I cannot win with at all but give them turn 2 wins consistently.  Knowing how to properly play a deck is huge, even if the deckbuilding skill can be copied.

jtwood said:

But when it comes to achieving event objectives, I think skill suddenly jumps way ahead of collection in this game. Think of an enraged event where you have to end with 20 or less life. Sure, collection will help a bit here. Having something like LIch's Mastery makes it easier to walk your life down to <20 with some comfort that you'll be able to lock things down long enough to pull out the victory. But it's that last part - walking things down properly under the stress of double damage - that cannot be achieved automagically simply with a great collection. You need to play the game a lot, fail repeatedly, and figure out how to achieve that objective properly.

Sure, most events don't have complicated objectives and can be achieved by even the greenest of players, but there are plenty of objectives in this game that definitely ask you to understand the flow of the game as much as having cards to achieve the objective.

This I definitely agree with.  Stalling for **** objectives is an art form.  Stall too much and you lose, but win too fast and you miss points.  A good amount of this comes from deckbuilding, since you need to build differently for a deck to be able to win fast without actually winning fast.

This goes with my point above, though.  I can make a deck that will get a perfect score in an event, but someone who doesn't know why I included certain cards or why certain cards should not be played will not do as well by just copying the list.

Volrak

The original proposition is worded ambiguously (it was probably written without anticipating it would spawn so much discussion!), so stating an opinion on that without also sharing a specific interpretation of the question is doomed to disagreement.

My interpretation is "Does skill always remain important no matter how large one's collection size is?", and my opinion is absolutely, yes.  It's the reason why some players (on average in the long run) consistently outperform others who have at least the same number of cards, and who apply the same effort.

There are a huge set of skills which can improve the odds of better outcomes, even setting deck construction aside.  (Yes, bug avoidance is one of them.)

Kinesia

Net decks don't matter in this at ALL, it's not like paper magic.
There is huge amounts of skill in just the gem matching side, predicting what might drop where. Good players can absolutely get more cascades than average ones.
If you copy someone elses deck and don't completely 100% understand every single use for every single card then you'll play it worse than they do.
If you don't know your decks specific weaknesses and play to minimise them then you'll lose.

I hear so many conspiracy theories about Greg knowing what's going to fall and cheating on card draws, or player card draws being altered based on what's going on, but it's all rubbish because people simply can't hold every possibility in their head and they assume that any they haven't thought of are exceptions, they aren't.
You can do things like "If I make this vertical match worth 3 mana I actually have 3 chances of 1 in 6 of making another match which might cause a cascade." versus the beginner "there's a vertical match 3 here, but I get 1 extra mana with this horizontal match 4 so I'll do that."

Skill takes probability into account and warps it.

ih8regin

A horizontal 4-match gives up to 7 chances to cascade into a 3 vertical match from above, provided there are gems in position, and also gives a decent chance to drop a 3-match in 7 gems of the top line, independently. Sooooo, I would argue about taking a vertical 3-match without seeing the whole board, and even then, chances are you get screwed either way.

Horadrim

Now that the element of RNG is included in the equation.... two players in platinum who have the same skills and same card collection... whoever is more lucky (e.g. draws combo cards early in the match, cascades for good amount of mana and able to cast combo cards early in the match, AND a bug-free match) wins the match.