Odd Shard Side-Effect : A Non-Hoarder will Hoard

LavaManLee

I may be super atypical here, but wanted to share my current shard experience.  And, for the record, I despise hoarding.  I open my tokens as they come and very rarely save a pile for anything.
My last token opening gave me enough shards to put the 13th cover on 2099 Spidey and champ him.  I now have everyone champed that I want to reasonably, except Rahne and Modok.  I have Mysterio, Magik and Talos all at some variation of 5/2/2 so enough for Shield but not enough to champ and really have no desire to do so unless they come up when opening a token.  Every other 4* is champed.
What I really want is to wait for Rahne to come to shards.  In the old system, I would probably just slap on a BH to Grocket or Bishop waiting for Rahne to come available and if one came up, great.  But in this system, I don't want to just put shards on a character and then have them kind of dangle there for a while and switch to Rahne when she is available.
So, for the first time in my 1826 days of MPQ, I am hoarding my tokens.  When Rahne is there in shards, I'll go ahead and open.  But until then, that number of unopened tokens will stare me in the face each day, taunting me to open them and waste my shards.  :-)
Anyways, nothing major.  Just interesting that shards changed my philosophy and I will now be hoarding.

Warbeast_7

Funny thing is the devs do not want us to be hoarding. Now with this mechanic it seems like more people are hoarding now more than ever. I too have started hardcore hoarding EVERYTHING now. The irony is hilarious.

DyingLegend

I hate hoarding, but I'm going to start because of shards. 

Vhailorx

Yes, it is obvious that hoarding is by far the best tool available to players to counter the problem of stranded shards.

Locking shards per character is just a terrible design decision. Nor was it an unforeseen consequence.  I and many, many other players identified this issue in the original shards announcement thread almost immediately.

Omegased

Vhailorx said:

Yes, it is obvious that hoarding is by far the best tool available to players to counter the problem of stranded shards.

Locking shards per character is just a terrible design decision. Nor was it an unforeseen consequence.  I and many, many other players identified this issue in the original shards announcement thread almost immediately.

I agree that it's current implementation is seems a poor decision. My hopeful thought righ tnow is that shard implementation isn't really completed and we'll see them everywhere. 

Regardless of favourited (targeted?) person, we'll have shards for everybody, earned from everywhere. This is my dream.

JHawkInc

You do realize that they did it on purpose, right? This isn't a situation where the clever players saw a problem the devs failed to predict. They know exactly what they're doing, and are probably okay with making a handful of forumites grumpy if that's the tradeoff for adding hundreds of monetizable items to their free to play microtransaction game. Further, putting players in a bind encourages them to spend to get out of that bind. That's how the game has worked since day one, from the very first time you have a cover expiring and need HP to roster a new character. It's not a flaw, it's a perk.

And that's before you get to the future benefits of the devs having a finer control over resource distribution.

Godzillafan67

One's situation may vary. Except for the 5* tier, all of my BHs are now sharded.
It's fine if I end up with hanging shards due to getting the cover I need because I'll be sharding that character again sometime in the future for champ rewards or just to guide them towards max champion status. The only time they'd become wasted is if the shards are stuck to the max champ and don't transfer to the podling I'm farming. 
Since I've just over 90% of the 4* and 50% of the 5* with plenty of covers needed, I'm sharding Carbage and opening classics, whereas before I'd open legendaries with my BH on those characters I want or need covers for.

HoundofShadow

The fact that the devs deliberately sell "wasted shards" in Kitty Pryde bundle is as good as reinforcing their belief that "wasted shard is not a problem."  or they are aware that it will be a problem, that's why they do things this way. I don't think they are going to do away with character-specific shards gain.

Let's say you are sharding R4G and they are at 250/400. New character comes into store and you switch to sharding her. You completed your goal and you go back to sharding R4G. You completed one round of sharding for R4G. New character comes in. Rinse and repeat the process.

I still think it's not an actual waste until you are 1 level away from max champing that character. The wastage that you are experiencing seems to be due to the psychological need for completeness. Hoarding is not going to prevent you from "wastage" because there's possibility of you pulling a character with 13/13 + 350/400 shards, unless somehow you know what's the next 134 pulls in advance.

LavaManLee

HoundofShadow said:

I still think it's not an actual waste until you are 1 level away from max champing that character. The wastage that you are experiencing seems to be due to the psychological need for completeness. Hoarding is not going to prevent you from "wastage" because there's possibility of you pulling a character with 13/13 + 350/400 shards, unless somehow you know what's the next 134 pulls in advance.

Hoarding definitely will prevent me from "wastage".  My Rahne is 1/2/0.  I can clearly benefit from loads of shards from her before I ever worry about getting 1 cover away.  I could get five covers of her in a row and still want to shard her (is it legal to say that?).
Anyways, it definitely is worth hoarding until she is available to shard.  Once I can make her the TH, then I won't hoard again until needed.

ThaRoadWarrior

Something I’ve noticed about how I play is I’ve all but stopped caring what comes out of the token anymore opening as I go, but just watching the little micro progress I get on my counters now. I pulled 3 Profe$$or X’s this week, and I was like “but how about those Okoye shards, RNGeezus...you got any of those?”

i can’t tell if it’s the UI change, my current roster situation, or shards themselves, but it seems like watching those tickers is where the “excitement” is now. 

jamesh

HoundofShadow said:

Let's say you are sharding R4G and they are at 250/400. New character comes into store and you switch to sharding her. You completed your goal and you go back to sharding R4G. You completed one round of sharding for R4G. New character comes in. Rinse and repeat the process.

It seems pretty clear this is an issue of the player's stance on delayed gratification.  The original poster said he likes to open tokens immediately, so presumably wants to take advantage of any rewards as soon as they're earned.

With the shard system, every token you open now gives you rewards you won't be able to take advantage of for tens or even hundreds more token pulls.  Sure, these are similar to the old bonus hero rewards, but you never felt like you'd earned a bonus hero until you received a whole usable cover.

And while it is possible to switch backward and forward between which heroes you target, that really just delays gratification even further over only switching targets once a whole cover has been earned for a character.

Chameleon

Interestingly enough, this is keeping many of us from spending HP on the daily deals because when we hoard we can't pull those.  Might seem insignificant but I have 10 packs hoarded now so I'm not not even getting the option to open the daily deal 10 packs, let alone the singles.

I'm not sure this is what the devs, or shareholders, had in mind.

hodayathink

I don't see how this is any different from the old system, where the best way to get Wolfsbane covers would have been to also wait until she able to be bonused and then pulling all your Legendaries/tokens then.

HoundofShadow

Under the old system, you need about 94 pulls to get a BH 4* and about 24 LT pulls to get a bonus 4*.

Unless the players have amazing luck with BHs on a consistent basis, I find the idea of not being able to enjoy the extra one or two rewards due to BHs a bit weird. The players are still enjoying champ rewards from pulling tokens, except they can't enjoy a full cover immediately from TH, compared to BH.

If the majority of players who don't like TH are earning about 100 Heroic tokens per week, the impact on them could be high, unless they have amazing streaks with BH consistently. 

Again, I understand the excitement of BH is gone. For the benefit of the majority, the TH system is fairer as a whole in terms of earning additional cover. 

broll

I think right now the majority of people have this concept that having shards spread around multiple characters is a waste.  What I suspect will happen as the system get's fully fleshed out over the next several updates is some subset of the following:
- Rebalance of PvE and/or PvP rewards to add shards into mix
- Add shards to vaults
- Add shards to champ levels

Once this starts happening have shards spread out around multiple characters will be inevitable and eventually start to feel normal.  

The other fact of the matter is that hoarding is objectively more optimal if your focus is speed/control of rostering.  This is just another very slight improvement over the already most optimal method.  What this really changes IMO is people feel like they have to hoard in order to "get that BH feeling" AKA more frequently getting a full bonus cover during pulls.  That's the problem with this system they really need to address.  Shard pops are too small to match the previous rate of BH (even if RNG were taking out of BH).  They could really do with an increase to get it to getting a free cover every 5%, currently it's dropped to 4% from 5%.

If they aren't going to up the shard rate from this system then they should consider putting some new BH type RNG back in.  Maybe occasionally getting bonus shards where you get 10% - 50% of the shards needed for a cover on a single pull.  Maybe old style BHs come back, but at  1% or 2% drop rate.  I personally don't need that dopamine high to enjoy the system, but it's clear a lot of people do.  It's like you just forced the community to go off it cold turkey.

Vhailorx

JHawkInc said:

You do realize that they did it on purpose, right? This isn't a situation where the clever players saw a problem the devs failed to predict. They know exactly what they're doing, and are probably okay with making a handful of forumites grumpy if that's the tradeoff for adding hundreds of monetizable items to their free to play microtransaction game. Further, putting players in a bind encourages them to spend to get out of that bind. That's how the game has worked since day one, from the very first time you have a cover expiring and need HP to roster a new character. It's not a flaw, it's a perk.

And that's before you get to the future benefits of the devs having a finer control over resource distribution.

Of course it was an intentional decision, and of course d3/demi made the decision because of the monetization opportunities.  But we know that d3/demi also hates hoarding (because hoarders are not spending while they hoard), and the obvious side effect of this per-characrer lock on shards is is increased hoarding.  So will people spend more on the shard store, or less because of extra hoarding? I guess we will find out in a few months as demi abandons/works on the system.

MadScientist

Elite Tokens and Heroic Tokens yield more extra covers under the new system, Legendary Tokens less:

Elite Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 80 tokens you open (1:4 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 23.3 tokens you open (300 shards / 13 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Heroic Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 100 tokens you open (1:5 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 4-star covery every 320 tokens you open (1:16 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 30 tokens you open (300 shards / 10 shards gained) and an extra 4-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (400 shards / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Legendary Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 23.5 tokens you open (17:20 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 5-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (3:20 to get a 5-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 26.7 tokens you open (400 shards / 15 shards gained) and an extra 5-star cover every 167.7 tokens you open (500 shard / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Bonus Heroes

Therefore, any player who gains "100 Heroic Tokens per week" should love target heroes.

pheregas

MadScientist said:

Elite Tokens and Heroic Tokens yield more extra covers under the new system, Legendary Tokens less:

Elite Tokens:

Winner: Target Heroes

Heroic Tokens:

Legendary Tokens:

Winner: Bonus Heroes

Therefore, any player who gains "100 Heroic Tokens per week" should love target heroes.

Love your breakdown here.  This is a great illustration of different perceptions on a new gameplay feature depending on that player's tier.

broll

@MadScientist Nice breakdown and it's great to show the facts.  Sadly it's not likely to change how people feel about it.

Warbringa

HoundofShadow said:

The fact that the devs deliberately sell "wasted shards" in Kitty Pryde bundle is as good as reinforcing their belief that "wasted shard is not a problem."  or they are aware that it will be a problem, that's why they do things this way. I don't think they are going to do away with character-specific shards gain.

Let's say you are sharding R4G and they are at 250/400. New character comes into store and you switch to sharding her. You completed your goal and you go back to sharding R4G. You completed one round of sharding for R4G. New character comes in. Rinse and repeat the process.

I still think it's not an actual waste until you are 1 level away from max champing that character. The wastage that you are experiencing seems to be due to the psychological need for completeness. Hoarding is not going to prevent you from "wastage" because there's possibility of you pulling a character with 13/13 + 350/400 shards, unless somehow you know what's the next 134 pulls in advance.

I agree with Hound here.  There is a difference between waste defined by forums and waste by the devs.  You don't lose those shards on a targeted character, you can always finish completing it.  The devs, rightly so, do not believe that is waste.  What the forums are calling waste is actually a form of opportunity cost.  It isn't a direct cost in the games resources (HP, Iso, CP, etc.) but it is an opportunity cost in that you applied these shards to a character that you ended up getting covered through another means.  You look at it and say, geez, I could have had those shards on another 4* or 5* in hindsight.  That is the opportunity costs that the new shard system presents.  It is not however the same as waste.  Those shards that you put into the character are still there and just as effective in getting you another cover of that character, even if you now don't want it.  Those of us who are analytical with roster building recognize the new cost of this system.  I don't believe it is necessarily worse than the costs of the old one.  Those included pulling far under averages (which many players have documented in past posts) and getting wrong color covers. In the old system, an opportunity cost was I didn't want to bonus hero a 5* with a 5/5/2 (or any other 12 cover variation with two 5s) since I have a good chance of not getting that one specific color cover.  So instead I would apply my bonus 5* covers to another "less wasteful" option, even though that was not actually waste as well (at least since saved covers became a feature).  It is the new system, we will get used to it. 

I am waiting to see how the roll out of other ways to get shards is implemented in the game before declaring with finality if this system is worse, better or similar to bonus heroes for most rosters.

Daredevil217

Warbringa said:

HoundofShadow said:

The fact that the devs deliberately sell "wasted shards" in Kitty Pryde bundle is as good as reinforcing their belief that "wasted shard is not a problem."  or they are aware that it will be a problem, that's why they do things this way. I don't think they are going to do away with character-specific shards gain.

Let's say you are sharding R4G and they are at 250/400. New character comes into store and you switch to sharding her. You completed your goal and you go back to sharding R4G. You completed one round of sharding for R4G. New character comes in. Rinse and repeat the process.

I still think it's not an actual waste until you are 1 level away from max champing that character. The wastage that you are experiencing seems to be due to the psychological need for completeness. Hoarding is not going to prevent you from "wastage" because there's possibility of you pulling a character with 13/13 + 350/400 shards, unless somehow you know what's the next 134 pulls in advance.

I agree with Hound here.  There is a difference between waste defined by forums and waste by the devs.  You don't lose those shards on a targeted character, you can always finish completing it.  The devs, rightly so, do not believe that is waste.  What the forums are calling waste is actually a form of opportunity cost.  It isn't a direct cost in the games resources (HP, Iso, CP, etc.) but it is an opportunity cost in that you applied these shards to a character that you ended up getting covered through another means.  You look at it and say, geez, I could have had those shards on another 4* or 5* in hindsight.  That is the opportunity costs that the new shard system presents.  It is not however the same as waste.  Those shards that you put into the character are still there and just as effective in getting you another cover of that character, even if you now don't want it.  Those of us who are analytical with roster building recognize the new cost of this system.  I don't believe it is necessarily worse than the costs of the old one.  Those included pulling far under averages (which many players have documented in past posts) and getting wrong color covers. In the old system, an opportunity cost was I didn't want to bonus hero a 5* with a 5/5/2 (or any other 12 cover variation with two 5s) since I have a good chance of not getting that one specific color cover.  So instead I would apply my bonus 5* covers to another "less wasteful" option, even though that was not actually waste as well (at least since saved covers became a feature).  It is the new system, we will get used to it. 

I am waiting to see how the roll out of other ways to get shards is implemented in the game before declaring with finality if this system is worse, better or similar to bonus heroes for most rosters.

You all know that when people say “wasted” no one actually thinks they disappear right? It’s shorthand/forum slang. Like “feeders” are actually “update to champion rewards”, PVE is actually “story mode” and “pink” is actually “purple”. 

I think everyone knows what people mean when they say it and are purposely focusing on getting bogged down in semantics in order to say “you’re wrong they’re not wasted!”, and we have the same circular arguments. If people want to adopt a better term, fine. But until then I will keep using the common forum slang. 

I currently have 0/500 shards for my TH 5* Parker. I’d be really upset if I got him halfway there and a pop-up or new release store had him.  Used to be a fun place to spend but now there’s a real chance that he could be completed there and I’d be left with 250 shards sitting there. The shards are not wasted. They are still there. But the time and effort I had spent and would need to continue to spend to finish the meter would be a waste and not worth the return on investment (champ reward for months of pulls). 

I have 30/400 4* shards for my TH Kate Bishop. Under the old system I would swap BH between the feeder I’m chasing (Kate), the 4* character I’m trying to max (Grocket), and the  
new release character (MODOK/Wolfsbane). Now? I‘m again hoarding everything. I’d hate to be halfway to finishing Wolfsbane only to see she is the upcoming progression reward for PVE.

3* I have 460/300 shards for my TH 3* Hawkeye. Honestly I tried the “claim all” button and opened some tokens here and there. But overall I no longer enjoy opening tokens at all and so have just resorted to hoarding everything. This was one of the most fun parts of the game for me and now it’s a screen I rarely look at. 

I now think 133 and 167 pulls at a time to help prevent waste (of time not shards). If I pull those numbers in one sitting it isn’t about “instant gratification”.  Trust me when I say it isn’t gratifying. Especially now that with shards they take twice the time to open. It’s because we can no longer “switch targets” if we pull the thing we want naturally or see the thing we want coming up for sale/in rewards.