New Feature in R191: Shards

fmftint

500 shards to get a "target cover", 3 shards/LT, 167 LTs to build a "target cover" 
This is demonstrably worse than the current bonus hero model

FesterTester

Someone please double-check this, but it looks like covers will be awarded less frequently, not statistically the same.

With bonus heroes, you were supposed to average a bonus hero once every 20 pulls, and 5-stars came from legendary tokens at a 15% rate, so you would average one 5-star bonus every 133.33 pulls.
With shards, you get 3 shards for opening a legendary token, and need 500 for a new cover.  This works out to 166.67 pulls.
Four-stars with bonus heroes: around 1 in 23.53 pulls.  With shards: around 1 in 26.67 pulls

Also, once you start accumulating shards for a character, you're kind of "committed" toward them in a way that bonus heroes does not require.
Unless you focus on the same character until they reach "full shards", every time you change favorites you are abandoning your progress (yeah you can switch back later, but...)  Over time this can add up to a whole lot of shards spread out among multiple characters.  Whereas right now when the new hotness comes out, you can immediately switch your bonus hero to them without feeling like you're losing anything.

Being able to choose your color might make up for reduced precentage, but the system of losing progress from switching characters is the opposite of fun.  Would have much preferred if shards were "generic" to each tier and could be applied to anyone you want, rather than piling up separate shards for each character.

Feels like a step backwards overall if implemented as stated.

IceIX

The rockett said:

IceIX said:

The rockett said:

@IceIX does this mean feeders are dead and we will not get anymore?  

No, and... not dead. Champion Rewards updates are not coming with this launch, but the Shards system impacts them, which is why feeders have kind of halted for the moment.

Thank you for being honest with this since Feeders have been a huge hot button.  At least we have an answer, even if we do not agree with it.  

As others have pointed out, Shards will be a lower rate than BH which isn’t good.  Any reasoning behind that? 

Statistically on say, Legendaries, about 33% of players would fail to pull a single BH from 167 pulls. Some of those players that pull a BH would pull a cover they don't need. With this system, 100% of players get the character and cover they want (assuming they've fav'd one character anyway).

This also is just in regards to pulls. As stated towards the end, the Shards will be rolled out elsewhere in the game. So you won't just be gaining Shards from pulls, you'll get them from progressions, or placements, or Champ Rewards, or whatever, which, if you're looking for 5s currently is not the case.

jp1

Last thing before I quit beating this drum...

Who is making these decisions? You fellas are consistently devaluing our resources, both in game and real dollars. It is almost insulting at this point. This is the bone you throw at us? 

Marketing department must be having a fun time.

Dogface

If i'm reading this correctly, if you pull a LT, you get 3 5* shards PLUS 15 4* shards, which means you're working on two targeted heroes at the same time. That would change the math.

The rockett

IceIX said:

The rockett said:

IceIX said:

The rockett said:

@IceIX does this mean feeders are dead and we will not get anymore?  

No, and... not dead. Champion Rewards updates are not coming with this launch, but the Shards system impacts them, which is why feeders have kind of halted for the moment.

Thank you for being honest with this since Feeders have been a huge hot button.  At least we have an answer, even if we do not agree with it.  

As others have pointed out, Shards will be a lower rate than BH which isn’t good.  Any reasoning behind that? 

Statistically on say, Legendaries, about 33% of players would fail to pull a single BH from 167 pulls. Some of those players that pull a BH would pull a cover they don't need. With this system, 100% of players get the character and cover they want (assuming they've fav'd one character anyway).

This also is just in regards to pulls. As stated towards the end, the Shards will be rolled out elsewhere in the game. So you won't just be gaining Shards from pulls, you'll get them from progressions, or placements, or Champ Rewards, or whatever, which, if you're looking for 5s currently is not the case.

Ok.  If i am understanding this, the “reduction” of shard rate compared to BH is because there will be other NON- monetary ways to earn them.  If this could be PVE, PVP, SIM, champ rewards etc.  This almost seems a little like CPs being in other parts of the game. 

Will you be able to get/earn  3*/4*/5* shards in these other parts of the game?  Just want to make sure all levels will be earnable.  . 

IceIX

Dogface said:

If i'm reading this correctly, if you pull a LT, you get 3 5* shards PLUS 15 4* shards, which means you're working on two targeted heroes at the same time. That would change the math.

Correct.

The rockett said:

IceIX said:

The rockett said:

IceIX said:

The rockett said:

@IceIX does this mean feeders are dead and we will not get anymore?  

No, and... not dead. Champion Rewards updates are not coming with this launch, but the Shards system impacts them, which is why feeders have kind of halted for the moment.

Thank you for being honest with this since Feeders have been a huge hot button.  At least we have an answer, even if we do not agree with it.  

As others have pointed out, Shards will be a lower rate than BH which isn’t good.  Any reasoning behind that? 

Statistically on say, Legendaries, about 33% of players would fail to pull a single BH from 167 pulls. Some of those players that pull a BH would pull a cover they don't need. With this system, 100% of players get the character and cover they want (assuming they've fav'd one character anyway).

This also is just in regards to pulls. As stated towards the end, the Shards will be rolled out elsewhere in the game. So you won't just be gaining Shards from pulls, you'll get them from progressions, or placements, or Champ Rewards, or whatever, which, if you're looking for 5s currently is not the case.

Ok.  If i am understanding this, the “reduction” of shard rate compared to BH is because there will be other NON- monetary ways to earn them.  If this could be PVE, PVP, SIM, champ rewards etc.  This almost seems a little like CPs being in other parts of the game. 

Will you be able to get/earn  3*/4*/5* shards in these other parts of the game?  Just want to make sure all levels will be earnable.  . 

I can't speak to exactly what the rewards will be in the other parts of the game since they aren't finalized yet. However, your assumption is a pretty sound one.

RickOShay

jp1 said:

Dogface said:

Isn't the chance for a BH something like 5%? With a 1 in 7 chance for a 5*, that's a chance of 1 in 140 for a 5* BH. With 3 shards per Legendary/Classic pull, you need a bit more pulls (around 166), but that's without shards you might pick up otherways. Plus, as said, you get to pick your color.

Ever purchase a 40 pack and get 4 or 5 bonus 4* toons? Say goodbye to those days. Same for 3s.

What about getting a run of 5* BH (in this case meaning more than one) while a much wanted character was in packs? Also gone.

Even if you ran hot with your odds during your example. your lifetime expectations will fall right in line with the stats. 
Therefore, it may not feel like an improvement, but I assure you that choosing a specific color will outweigh your concerns in the long run.

St_Bernadus

When does this come into the game? When is R 191 going to be available?

IceIX

St_Bernadus said:

When does this come into the game? When is R 191 going to be available?

We don't announce exact dates since we're beholden to first party (Apple/Amazon/Google) store approvals and they've been wonky sometimes. I'd expect it early next week (week of the 18th) though.

Daredevil217

This is awful. Here I thought we were getting something new and exciting to help with dilution. Instead we are getting something worse to replace the one thing that helps with dilution! It’s always one step forward and two steps back with D3. I used BH to help keep up with SHIELD training.  Seems like I’ll need 133 heroic tokens to get a single 4* cover... so that’s out. For a 5* it looks like 166 LT or 4,166 CP to get a 5* cover.  If you’re afraid to jump into 5* land because you missed out on Thor, you can go fishing in the ever growing diluted Classics pool, or get him for 54,166 CP.  Dilution solved!  Unless I’m not understanding this. Overall this is probably a huge bump for the spenders, but the FTP are going to hurt greatly with this one. I don’t understand why they always move laterally when trying to combat dilution instead of making strides toward fixing the problem.

This reminds me so much of when they got rid of the 50/50 Latest/Classic split and tried to sell us “marginally increased odds for 4* covers in 4* PVP events that rarely ever run, where you may get 1-3 tokens!”

Or “we are offering saved covers! While also taking away the ability to swap 1:1 with customer service.”

I’d be fine with moving laterally (though this actually feels like a step backwards for those who don’t spend) IF you weren’t adding to the dilution pool every 2 weeks. We need progress forward, not sideways. 

JHawkInc

They basically spelled it out on the forums in a long discussion about streak-breakers. They said then to add a streak-breaker to bonus heroes they'd have to lower the overall odds (bonus covers per total pulls) to account for the guarantee. You can't have the guarantee in the long run without the slightly slower rate on the single cover.

Shards is basically the streak-breaker people have asked for, PLUS all of the extra things shards can do (shards in the daily deal, plus literally anywhere else they choose to stick shards in the game).

jp1

RickOShay said:

jp1 said:

Dogface said:

Isn't the chance for a BH something like 5%? With a 1 in 7 chance for a 5*, that's a chance of 1 in 140 for a 5* BH. With 3 shards per Legendary/Classic pull, you need a bit more pulls (around 166), but that's without shards you might pick up otherways. Plus, as said, you get to pick your color.

Ever purchase a 40 pack and get 4 or 5 bonus 4* toons? Say goodbye to those days. Same for 3s.

What about getting a run of 5* BH (in this case meaning more than one) while a much wanted character was in packs? Also gone.

Even if you ran hot with your odds during your example. your lifetime expectations will fall right in line with the stats. 
Therefore, it may not feel like an improvement, but I assure you that choosing a specific color will outweigh your concerns in the long run.

Specific colors haven’t been a large concern of mine at my rate of cover acquisition. So, I would have to disagree about that. 

However, I recognize some folks will be happy with the trade off. Especially folks with an abundance of spare hp who are making consistent placement.

It undermines the joy you might find in lucking into a great cover and doesn’t really offer much in return. It certainly isn’t improving acquisition rates which desperately needs addressing.

FesterTester

IceIX said:

Dogface said:

If i'm reading this correctly, if you pull a LT, you get 3 5* shards PLUS 15 4* shards, which means you're working on two targeted heroes at the same time. That would change the math.

Correct.

It is correct that you would be working on two targeted heroes at the same time, but that does NOT change the math, it has already been taken into consideration when stating the odds earlier.

What would change the math is shards being given out in-game for things other than token pulls, that is still up in the air at this time.

Would like to see a statement about useless shards accumulating across several characters, especially if shards given out in-game are character specific (the screen grab already shows character-specific shards in a storefront).

Omegased

i'm.... Torn. I'm disappointed that bonus heroes are going. For 3star characters, I like having multiple bonus so i just favourite ones that are about to give me the next cool rewards.

I honestly don't see how this is any better at fixing dilution. the tiny fraction of improvement doesn't really sit with me as a step forward.

At any rate, i'll wait for it to start. hopefully it's way better than it sounds.

IceIX

Daredevil217 said:

Also, I love asking “are feeders ever updating?” and not answering it, despite the fact that it’s a legit question that people have asked a ton on these here official forums over and again.  I don’t know if that was trolling, but if so, well done.  If I was doing PR I wouldn’t mention it at all if I wasn’t going to address it, as it just conjures memories of “no obvious connection” and “special (not special) occasions” 

It's at the end there, talking about other rewards updates. Feeders are necessarily a part of Champion Rewards since that's how they're handed out. They're coming!

HoundofShadow

I like the new character interface a lot. It gives me a RPG vibe where the characters' weapons, armours etc are all shown on a single page.

As for Targeted Heroes, I find it strange that some are still surprised/disappointed that the concept of "balance" means "give and take". 

As seen in other parts of the game, guaranteed stuff cost more than stuff gained via RNG. For example, it cost 500CP/720CP for a guaranteed latest cover but it could take as low as 25CP to get one. Naturally, it will cost more pulls for guaranteed cover of your choice.

Instead of getting 1/87 chance and future diminishing chance of getting a 4* of your choice, it is now capped at 400/15 or 27 pulls.

For classic 5*, instead of 1/210 chance and future diminishing chance of getting the Classic 5* of your choice, it's now fixed at 167 pulls.

Obviously, no solution will satisfy all parties but I think for those casual players, which I believe make up the majority of the playerbase, this is a great help for them.

Omegased

Hey IceIX, if a character I've bonused (or favourited, or whatevs) appears in the daily store, will i get an alert?

St_Bernadus

I have been on those long stretches of pulls with no 5s at all, I appreciate this is kind of a streak breaker and I like making steady progress better than it being all on a random chance. I can see some prefer to take their chances but I am ok with giving this new system a chance. I have a hoard to open too.

jamesh

So with the new system, you'd need to open 167 legendary tokens to get enough shards to unlock one 5* cover of a chosen colour.  At the same time, you'd get enough shards to unlock 6.26 4* covers of a chosen colour.

Under the current bonus hero system, opening 167 legendary tokens will on average result in 1.25 bonus 5* covers of a random colour, and 7.10 bonus 4* covers of a random cover.

So it is probably slightly better if you were using bonus heroes to get a character up to 13 covers (or level 209 for SHIELD Training), but slightly worse if you were using them to gain champion levels on a character.