What if it isn't the devs...

helix72
helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
in MPQ General Discussion
Demi and d3 have taken a lot of heat here lately for a variety of issues: broken characters, lack of communication, uninspired anniversary, no solution to dilution, the list goes on. But let me throw out a possibility.

First: I have never worked with Demi, d3, or Marvel directly or indirectly, nor do I know anything about their business practices. (Nor do I have any friends or relatives that work there, nor have any direct ownership or financial interest, yada yada yada) However, I have worked with many other large companies that will remain nameless, so what I am about to suggest is taken from my experiences in contractual negotiations with those other large companies. Suffice it to say they include companies whose annual revenues are measured in the billions and most folks reading this (if not all) will have eaten at, shopped in, listened to, or touched in some way.

In my experience, the larger the company and the scarcer the product they provide, the more "control" they can and usually do assert over a contractual relationship.

Marvel has a very popular product, one for which there is no ready substitute. Do you think DC Puzzle Quest would be nearly as popular? Dark Horse Puzzle Quest? Likely not (no offense to DC and Dark Horse).

Demi and d3, on the other hand, provide services that are readily available from many other competitors.

I don't think it's that far out of the realm of possibility that the contract with Marvel puts a TON of limitations and controls on what Demi and d3 can do. That would include needing to go to Marvel to grant approval on all communications, game changes, new characters, special offers, elements of community interactions, etc.

So extrapolating a bit, I don't think it's wide outside the realm of possibility that what we're seeing (or rather not seeing) is outside the control of Demi and d3, and that Demi and d3, per the contract, would not even be able to say it's outside their control. Most of these contracts include such non-disclosure provisions. The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.

Now, you might have some evidence to suggest that Demi and D3 have acted similarly with other products from less valuable franchises. And that would be evidence that I'm totally off-base, so please tell me so.

But absent that evidence, it's possible we might be barking up the wrong tree. That the folks we're complaining to and about are restricted in what they can do and in addition restricted from telling us they're restricted. So all they can do is cringe, remain silent, and take the repeated beatings, which then only intensfiy because of said forced silence. Only when folks get unpolite or when they get approval from the higher power to do so does something different happen.

I'm just saying it might be possible...
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Comments

  • BuzzedLightbeer
    BuzzedLightbeer Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    What you say is certainly plausible.  I, too, have no way of knowing if it’s merely conjecture or perhaps spot-on, but I do understand the overarching theme you present of control within larger financial entities and the resulting inability of many to say much of anything about it if that’s the directive coming from above their pay grade.  Am also interested to see if others have additional information on whether or not this has been par for the course with lesser properties.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,758 Chairperson of the Boards
    While they do need to go to marvel for approval of characters to use in the game they do have a lot of flexibility in how to use the characters power levels and content.  For instance they could say 5* banner is just too underpowered and buff his stats without getting approval from Marvel.  They could have given out double CP in the anniversary week.  They could have given us 5 new 5* feeders if they wanted to.


  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    wymtime said:
    While they do need to go to marvel for approval of characters to use in the game they do have a lot of flexibility in how to use the characters power levels and content.  For instance they could say 5* banner is just too underpowered and buff his stats without getting approval from Marvel.  They could have given out double CP in the anniversary week.  They could have given us 5 new 5* feeders if they wanted to.


    Not being confrontational, just trying to gather all the facts: what is your source for this? Or are you (like me) just making a supposition based on some other theory or experience and if so, can you share said theory or experience?
  • Waddles_Pines
    Waddles_Pines Posts: 1,221 Chairperson of the Boards
    I get what you're saying and to a certain extent I agree.  But, there's no excusing the fact that they made a new PVE and they barely mentioned it.  Even though the reaction has been mixed to it, they did do something different.  They should promote their hard work, not bury it.
  • ursopro
    ursopro Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    so, what you are saying is that in order to ask for changes or express our complains our last resort is to go straight to the big honchos?

    Because that doesn't sounds like a good plan, ask the Jonas brothers


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Here is an old article (still relevant) about the challenges that other game developers face:

    https://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/25/developers-dont-open-up-about-games-theyre-working/

    Read this and see how many boxes it ticks for MPQ community.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    HoundofShadow said:
    Here is an old article (still relevant) about the challenges that other game developers face:

    https://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/25/developers-dont-open-up-about-games-theyre-working/

    Read this and see how many boxes it ticks for MPQ community.
    Which boxes does it tick exactly? By the way, just because this guy works in the industry doesn’t mean he is the last word on anything. He has a terrible attitude towards the people responsible for his paycheck.

    Want people to “move on” when your game sucks? I wonder how long might that be a relevant business model. Constructive criticism is important if you want to improve. Being a pompous **** who calls out everyone for being delusional about anything they might think, quite frankly is pathetic. Learn to get out of your feelings a little bit when dealing with your customer base, it’s part of being a professional.

    I’m surprised he didn’t get canned for that little outburst.

    Nobody here is making statements about how they know better than the developers how to implement anything...people are expressing their disappointment as paying customers for what they are receiving. Some companies spend good money for that kind of information, because, well...it’s valuable if you care to use it.

    You are on a roll today. Next find me an article about how Doctors don’t like to be sued or held accountable for malpractice because us stupid folk don’t have any understanding of the medicine. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The boxes are:

    Forums and comment sections are full of dunning-kruger specialists who are just waiting for any reason to descend on actual developers.

    See any thread where some dumbass comments how 'easy' it would be to, say, add multiplayer or change engines. Any dev who talks candidly about the difficulty of something like that just triggers a wave of people questioning their entire resumé."

    I think the devs was being candid when they said there isn't any obvious feeders. One of the obvious feederz is Rogue and Gambit, which they are aware, as you can see in the loading screen for cutest couple. Their reply to feeders triggered a certain reaction which this developer experienced:

    There are still topics I can't touch because I was candid once and it resulted in dumb headlines, misunderstandings, and harassment.
    By a player:

    I've seen what happens when devs are publicly candid. They get called shills, complainers and piled on by the hate brigade.

    Click on that dev twitter to find out the discussion with other game developers. If this guy isn't big enough for you. How about this developer from Overwatch:

    And if you'll allow me to speak openly for a moment -- it's scary. Overall, the community is awesome to us. But there are some pretty mean people out there. All of our developers are free to post on these forums. Very few of us actually do because it's extremely intimidating and/or time consuming. It's very easy to post the wrong thing and make a "promise" to the community that no one intended to make. Once we say we're working on something, we're not allowed to "take it back". It's set in stone.


    Most great developers I know just love being head's down making or playing games. The "public speaking/posting" part of the job is downright scary and intimidating. It often feels like there is no winning.

    As a result, there are a small few of us who do most of the posting here. Two weeks ago, I was offsite all week without posting access (I cannot make forum posts from my phone for security reasons). The week after that, I came into the office 1 hour later than I normally do (I was feeling extremely fatigued and rather than waking up at 5:40am like I do most days, I woke up at 6:30am). The end result was that for 2 weeks I haven't posted at my normal rate. I apologize that it's been a quiet two weeks but that doesn't mean that we -- the OW team -- haven't been working just as hard as we always do and are not dedicated to making this game great.


    Recent Apex Legends Saga:

    I’ve been in the industry long enough to remember when players weren’t complete ****-hats to developers and it was pretty neat. I forged a bunch of long lasting relationships from back then. Would be awesome to get back there, and not engaging with toxic people or asking “how high” when a mob screams “jump” is hopefully a start.”
    “So it’s fine for you all to call us liars, full of ****, and other personal attacks when we communicate an apology and update to the event but we’re “immature” when we call people out on it. Got it.”

    There are more from other game developers echoing similar things. The difference is how they position it, whether they want to be politically correct or be blunt about it.

  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    jp1 said:
    Spin it how you will, it isn’t going to turn into cotton candy because it is tinykitty not sugar.

    Love this quote! Can’t wait to use it in my Monday morning staff update. Thank you @jp1!
  • Waddles_Pines
    Waddles_Pines Posts: 1,221 Chairperson of the Boards
    Waddles_Pines said:
    I get what you're saying and to a certain extent I agree.  But, there's no excusing the fact that they made a new PVE and they barely mentioned it.  Even though the reaction has been mixed to it, they did do something different.  They should promote their hard work, not bury it.
    And the fact that the event (LIT) is a 3 day event, not a 4 day event shows a lack of caring.  In the past they would have corrected this.  Now what?  Are they going to blame Columbus Day weekend for the lack of communication/board maintenance/etc?  
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I used the wrong word because I was switching between tabs and I got things mixed up. That's why there's contradiction.

    Let me restart again:

    When they said that there isn't any obvious feeder, they were either jesting or it's an indirect way of saying there won't be any feeder.

    Note: I was not in the discord room when that happened, so I have no idea how the chat environment or atmosphere was like when this question was being asked. This will affect the interpretation of that particular sentence.

    If anyone take that sentence about there being no obvious feeder at face value, I think you need to take a deep breath and meditate to calm your nerve.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I used the wrong word because I was switching between tabs and I got things mixed up. That's why there's contradiction.

    Let me restart again:

    When they said that there isn't any obvious feeder, they were either jesting or it's an indirect way of saying there won't be any feeder.

    Note: I was not in the discord room when that happened, so I have no idea how the chat environment or atmosphere was like when this question was being asked. This will affect the interpretation of that particular sentence.

    If anyone take that sentence about there being no obvious feeder at face value, I think you need to take a deep breath and meditate to calm your nerve.
    Wow, you are really in their head. You know the intent behind their statement without even having been in the conversation?

    Also, you make him sound even worse FYI by implying he was just being a smart ****, you are saying that it couldn’t have possibly been a lapse in judgement and the worst possible outcome is the only conclusion.

    I’m having trouble understanding your intent with these posts. Serious question, is English a second language for you? I don’t want to assume either way.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2019
    You are confusing between opinions and facts. I'm stating an opinion based on whatever limited context was provided. The context that I had was that a user of this forum asked whether there will be a feeder and this was the answer that he got. I see this being mentioned in a number of threads. In my opinion, I think they were jesting.

    I thought that this place is a discussion forum, and not an interrogation room to find out who is right or who is wrong.  I'm also not here to explore all possibilities of how that sentence can be interpreted.


  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,729 Chairperson of the Boards
    I can assure you having been in the chat that the dev was not "jesting".  It may have been an excuse etc but that was a serious answer.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,101 Chairperson of the Boards
    As an aside - I have a personal anecdote of how Marvel (at least in the past) reacts to possible marketing of their materials by employees or creators. Now this was pre-Disney so possibly things have changed but...

    In the early/mid 2000's (circa 2003 - 2006) I was the official moderator of joequesada.com. This was at the time that Joe had been appointed as Editor in Chief of Marvel Comics. Most of my dealings with Joe were over the site but it did mean that I became friendly with a bunch of other creators who were associated with the site. One such person was Mark Millar.  Mark and I organised a meet-up between JQ.com and Millarworld (it involved beer). At this meeting Mark brought with him photocopy pages from the as yet unreleased Enemy of the State storyline - these were uninked pencils by John Romita Jr and they hadn't had dialect added at that time either but you could very clearly work out what was going on including the big twist at end of first issue. Mark got a bit antsy thinking he shouldn't have showed us so he phoned his editor in New York. The response? They faxed over to the pub (London pubs have fax machines, who knew?!?!?) the second issue too! On headed Marvel paper! It was so cool!  So yes, I "read" the first two issues of the story at least 6 months before it ever saw print and as long as we weren't publishing articles on the web, Marvel Editorial were fine with Millar promoting his work.

    Now Disney are a different kettle of fish I agree but the idea that all large corporate companies put unnecessary barriers in the way of those working for them is probably not as true as a certain poster here wants us to believe. Especially if it involved promotion of Marvel materials in a positive way. It is this past attitude from Marvel which makes me think any overriding restraint is not entirely on their side if things.

    I have more examples (I was even featured in 2 Marvel Comic books, lol) which make me reticent to believe this is all a Marvel thing.

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