Leaders without ones to lead??

Caeman
Caeman Posts: 65 Match Maker
in MtGPQ General Discussion
Biogenic Ooze and now Ayula... maybe before you guys create a leader for tokens, make sure that there are cards that summon corresponding tokens. At least other leaders have at least one card that will summon tokens.
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Comments

  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Caeman - there is one card that generates bears it is called Ayula’s influence, but I agree that some leaders are a bit underwhelming.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Caeman said:
    Biogenic Ooze and now Ayula... maybe before you guys create a leader for tokens, make sure that there are cards that summon corresponding tokens. At least other leaders have at least one card that will summon tokens.
    Oktagon doesn't really have control over what tokens appear in each set.  They just make the Leader cards that make sense for the cards they are given.  One day maybe it'll be relevant, or maybe not.

    I really don't understand what the issue is, it's literally one extra line of text that doesn't really effect the card at all.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    Not exactly what you’re looking for, but here’s some ooze leader fun:  (Karn)


  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    Tremayne said:
    @Caeman - there is one card that generates bears it is called Ayula’s influence, but I agree that some leaders are a bit underwhelming.
    Also a card in Eldraine that summons bear tokens. But the oozes could use a little love 
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    Mburn7 said:
    Caeman said:
    Biogenic Ooze and now Ayula... maybe before you guys create a leader for tokens, make sure that there are cards that summon corresponding tokens. At least other leaders have at least one card that will summon tokens.
    Oktagon doesn't really have control over what tokens appear in each set.  They just make the Leader cards that make sense for the cards they are given.  One day maybe it'll be relevant, or maybe not.

    I really don't understand what the issue is, it's literally one extra line of text that doesn't really effect the card at all.

    I've been giving these leader cards a ton of thought lately. I know this may not be a popular opinion, but I personally see these leader cards as an ample opportunity for Oktagon/D3 to create special event prize exclusives (standard legal) that will work with these cards. i.e. an older MTG card in paper has an Ant Queen that can produce insect tokens... maybe drops X number of activation gems x2 for each time Ant Queen is reinforced.

    ya know.. fun stuff right? ;)


  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    bken1234 said:
    Not exactly what you’re looking for, but here’s some ooze leader fun:  (Karn)



    Thank you for sharing. On a different Note, the Hanweir meld pair works beautifully with Wrenn & 6.
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    At the very least, the Ooze could have generated an Ooze token to reinforce itself then the leader would have netted a reinforcement...  Still the same end but a more leader-themed approach...
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  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    ElfNeedsFood said:
    At the very least, the Ooze could have generated an Ooze token to reinforce itself then the leader would have netted a reinforcement...  Still the same end but a more leader-themed approach...
    It kind of does do that, since it reinforces itself on entry.  The Elf, Angel, and Dragon leaders (and probably a few more I'm forgetting) all work that way.  Its the same thing as making the tokens in the end, but much less laggy.  Its actually a pretty good design.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think of them more as just interesting. I had fun building my ooze deck and it’s fun to play. 

    I don’t see them as particularly powerful or useful; and don’t think every leader needs to be. All things don’t need to be everything. Some things can be niche. 
  • KingGrace
    KingGrace Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    I just wish the leader reinforcement for leaders still triggered ETB's. Token production with Path of Discovery is strong, but does nothing when the leader is onboard... And that made me sad. My Huatli (enter token name here) deck took a big hit.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards

    starfall said:
    Leaders are low power by design, IMO. Generally I want single cards to create multiple threats on the board, like Drowner of Hope, Josu or Desolation Twin.

    Leaders consolidate the effect of multiple cards into a single reinforced creature that can be shot by a single removal spell.

    So, I'm not a fan.

    So...everything dies by removal No offense, but this argument can be used on anything really.

    Leaders are strong if done correctly as like any build. Multiple threats are fine, but the present meta makes them a nuisance more than anything since there is so much mass bounce, removal and disables available; especially so in Legacy.

  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    @starfall leader can be an effective work-around to the three creature limit...  That said, more of them should have haste...

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  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    starfall said:
    Gunmix25 said:

    starfall said:
    Leaders are low power by design, IMO. Generally I want single cards to create multiple threats on the board, like Drowner of Hope, Josu or Desolation Twin.

    Leaders consolidate the effect of multiple cards into a single reinforced creature that can be shot by a single removal spell.

    So, I'm not a fan.

    So...everything dies by removal No offense, but this argument can be used on anything really.

    Well... I mean it can't be used on Drowner of Hope, Josu or Desolation Twin. Or Darigaaz. Or Thopter Spy Network. Or Beacon Bolt...

    'Dies to removal' is, of course, an old chestnut that MTG players are used to seeing, but there's some truth in it. There's a reason why all those cards I've just listed are (or have been) some of the best win conditions in the game.


    [edit]

    Dammit I fired that post off too quickly, didn't I.

    We're talking here about multiple cards being killed by a single removal card. That's card advantage. 'Dies to removal' is an argument applied to a 1 on 1 transaction.


    don't worry, I often fire off posts a bit too early if on my phone too... something about that annoying "draft saved" pause every ten tinykitty seconds it seems like.

    I don't think you caught  that I mentioned "mass" removal, bounce and disables. But yes, I get your point about one on one. The present meta has a ton of cards like you mentioned dropping and producing an additional unit... but that same meta also has cards that kill the entire board, bounce it or disable it. That was the direction I was going for at least

  • Enygma6
    Enygma6 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
    Speaking of Leader concerns, one card that really should have it but doesn't is Huatli, Warrior Poet's Sun-Blessed Mount.  It reinforces when a Dinosaur token enters the battlefield.  But it takes up two slots because there has to be somewhere for the token to go.  And all of the other ways to give yourself a dinosaur token come from other creatures.
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2019
    It would be better if Leader would reinforce when a non-token creature is created as well, like how Lathliss does with Dragons...   Then the Ooze, Goblin, Elf, and Zombie leaders would become much more playable.
  • KingGrace
    KingGrace Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    ElfNeedsFood said:
    It would be better if Leader would reinforce when a non-token creature is created as well, like how Lathliss does with Dragons...   Then the Ooze, Goblin, Elf, and Zombie leaders would become much more playable.
    Then Lathliss wouldn't be unique. Dragons are generally  "difficult" to cast due to high mana costs. Elves are small and easy, zombies have all sorts of support. Sure, it would make them better, but the smaller leaders would be too easy to abuse. IMHO.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    ElfNeedsFood said:
    It would be better if Leader would reinforce when a non-token creature is created as well, like how Lathliss does with Dragons...   Then the Ooze, Goblin, Elf, and Zombie leaders would become much more playable.
    Lathliss does that because that's what her paper version does (it makes dragon tokens when you play a dragon)
    The Ooze one makes a token on ETB and on activation in paper, and does the same here.
    Elf leader makes tokens when targeted by an opponent's spell, and Zombie leader does on activate.

    I don't think Oktagon is able/willing to deviate too much from paper when designing cards.  They have never confirmed this (despite us asking for some sort of design insight rather frequently), and quite frankly they don't need to either.  But with the limited information I have seen I think we're just going to have to live with designs like this that are great in theory but don't have the support they need to actually be good in paper.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    ElfNdeedsFood said:
    It would be better if Leader would reinforce when a non-token creature is created as well, like how Lathliss does with Dragons...   Then the Ooze, Goblin, Elf, and Zombie leaders would become much more playable.
    Lathliss does that because that's what her paper version does (it makes dragon tokens when you play a dragon)
    The Ooze one makes a token on ETB and on activation in paper, and does the same here.
    Elf leader makes tokens when targeted by an opponent's spell, and Zombie leader does on activate.

    I don't think Oktagon is able/willing to deviate too much from paper when designing cards.  They have never confirmed this (despite us asking for some sort of design insight rather frequently), and quite frankly they don't need to either.  But with the limited information I have seen I think we're just going to have to live with designs like this that are great in theory but don't have the support they need to actually be good in paper.
    Well said, Lord Emrakhul

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