I just want to say goodbye

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Comments

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some great insights here. I agree that if the game is at all detrimental to your happiness or wellbeing it is the only option to walk away. The moment you don’t get more joy than what you invest in anything (much less a video game) it’s time to re-evaluate. Life’s too short.

    Wish all you folks the best.
  • Pottsie1980
    Pottsie1980 Posts: 46 Just Dropped In
    Feel dirty after watching the Jim Sterling video. Lots of exploitation going on. I have never broken the ice, but can see how it could get out of hand quickly 
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    Some great insights here. I agree that if the game is at all detrimental to your happiness or wellbeing it is the only option to walk away. The moment you don’t get more joy than what you invest in anything (much less a video game) it’s time to re-evaluate. Life’s too short.

    Wish all you folks the best.
    My issue was definitely sunk cost plus an obsessive collection complex. Gotta catch 'em all, after all.
    It even extended to buying those stupid costumes.

    I just came to a realisation that I had spent a load of money on PNGs. Then I actually *looked* at the cost and realised "Last week I didn't buy The Messenger on Switch because it was £15 and that felt kinda pricey. And then I bought the costume pack in MPQ for £15 because it felt like a good deal".

    Suddenly I felt like I'd woken up from something. Like...what the hell was I doing?

    Pottsie1980 said:
    Feel dirty after watching the Jim Sterling video. Lots of exploitation going on. I have never broken the ice, but can see how it could get out of hand quickly 
    Yeah, I had a similar reaction.
    I'd been saying for years that MPq is one of the better mobile games out there. There's no easy method of paying to win. But when I saw that seminar the realisation hit me like a train. When I first downloaded the game there was the steam DLC available super cheap. And I bought one of the packs to give myself a big boost forward in the early game. I'd frequently, even up to the point of leaving, compare the bundles of covers and HP and stuff against the general price listing and think "Hmm, that's not a bad offer relatively speaking." seen plenty on the board do it too.

    Even the "When someone in a clan spends money you need to tell everyone else in that clan. The socially acceptable way of playing the game is to pay." part. Alliances alert you when someone spends enough money. Even little things like that, all the psychology designed to chip away at you. I played the game a little while longer and I just saw it *everywhere*.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,101 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Dragon_Nexus - you once suggested that I must be a kid because I said that things had changed in games with regard to what you pay vs comes with included as expected. I suspect the truth is that I am older than you, I am certainly a good 10 years older than Jim Sterling. The "era" to which you spoke about was just a transition in itself. But everything he says is true, it just isn't new. This is the industry which had premium phone lines to get game tips and yes, I am ashamed to say I used them once or twice.

    The game industry has been a shady place pretty much all the the years I have been a game fan, which I guess is 35+ years as a 46 year old. Arcade games were the very prime example of gambling and prices for console games were the subject of Parliamentary concern.

    I hope you move on if that is your goal but none of this began with loot boxes or FTP games, that has just made it worst.
  • CT1888
    CT1888 Posts: 1,201 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:

    @Dragon_Nexus - you once suggested that I must be a kid because I said that things had changed in games with regard to what you pay vs comes with included as expected. I suspect the truth is that I am older than you, I am certainly a good 10 years older than Jim Sterling. The "era" to which you spoke about was just a transition in itself. But everything he says is true, it just isn't new. This is the industry which had premium phone lines to get game tips and yes, I am ashamed to say I used them once or twice.

    The game industry has been a shady place pretty much all the the years I have been a game fan, which I guess is 35+ years as a 46 year old. Arcade games were the very prime example of gambling and prices for console games were the subject of Parliamentary concern.

    I hope you move on if that is your goal but none of this began with loot boxes or FTP games, that has just made it worst.
    Man I remember playing the Gauntlet game circa 2000 in the students Union, when you could keep coming back and levelling up you character.
    I probably spent enough to buy a console and a couple of games on that one. Tactics have been there a long time.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    To all the people leaving (not just in this thread), I’ll say what I always say which is “I wish you the best of luck” and stop playing when the game is no longer enjoyable. 

    Day 1805 here. Still loving the game. I think a few things have made the game continue to be enjoyable to me. 

    1) I took the marathon approach. Stayed in each tier as long as I could and really enjoyed each tier of play. I never felt the need to “catch up” or progress as fast as possible. I always measured my progress against myself rather than others. 

    2) Focused on fun teams over meta teams. I know people sitting on hoards you wouldn’t believe just waiting for that next big meta to drop. Meanwhile they are missing out on REALLY good/ fun characters like Hela, Doom, Iceman, etc. because they’re not as good as Thorkoye/ Gritty/ Thanos. Variety is the spice of life in this game and I’d rather place worse with a bunch of 450s than to dominate with a few 550s, even if they are the best characters in the game. 

    3) I didn’t spend for years. And when I did finally spend, it was two bucks a month for drops. That’s it. Remaining mostly FTP I find i get less angry at the decisions the developers make. I feel less like I’m “owed” something and feel I am getting tons of value per dollar spent (which is almost nothing). I do play this game like a fiend though, but again, I enjoy it. 

    4) I invest in the community. I’ve created and contributed to countless threads here and joined an alliance that is very active on Line. The people I’ve connected with and the communities have enhanced my experience in a game I already enjoy. 

    5) I’ve set goals for myself. I think right now the hardest part of the game has been slowed progress since joining the 5* tier. I used to champ 1-2 characters a week in 4* land and now it may be months before I get a “new toy”. It seems they are accelerating the 5* release rate but not the resources, meaning I might have to start skipping some which is a bummer as well. So during these long painful droughts I have come up with mini goals which have made the game a bit more fun. Getting a certain amount of iso, a certain number of pulls, Max-champing 2 sets of 3* etc. This kind of stuff can help during the **** parts of the game. 

    6) I’ve fully understood the “deceitful” mechanics at play since day 1.  I watched all 30 minutes of that video and nothing in there shocked me (though I’m a psychologist). I thought it was funny that the YouTuber got mad at the game companies for being deceptive and elusive about their practices but also got upset about them being very up front and brazen about what they are doing. It makes sense that any industry use the most effective tactics to hook people on their product and make money. The gaming industry is not a charity, it’s a business.  

    To those who the game is no longer fun for, congrats on stepping away, and I really hope you enjoy the newfound time! Lord knows this game can be a huge time sink. So I hope you fill it with something you enjoy and / or find meaningful!
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    All those techniques have been around for decades. It's not exclusive to the gaming industry. It's rampant in any companies that make use of marketing and advertising. People who feel hurt after watching that video must be living a sheltered life, or they are simply not aware of how the real world works.

    Talking about greed. What about players who keep asking for more and more rewards. Isn't that greed as well? :|

    When the devs was nice enough to let player switch their dupe  latest 5* covers temporarily as a sign of goodwill, and they got blasted after stopping their service, isn't that greed as well?

    Just get a copy of MPQ console version, complete the game and move on with your life and never look back. Because this is the kind of MPQ that many in here wants.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:
    I'm reminded of that South Park: If you don't like it.....geeeeeeeet OUT! 
    Daredevil217 said:
    6) I’ve fully understood the “deceitful” mechanics at play since day 1.  I watched all 30 minutes of that video and nothing in there shocked me (though I’m a psychologist). I thought it was funny that the YouTuber got mad at the game companies for being deceptive and elusive about their practices but also got upset about them being very up front and brazen about what they are doing. It makes sense that any industry use the most effective tactics to hook people on their product and make money. The gaming industry is not a charity, it’s a business.  
    They are not mutually exclusive: predatory practices and braggadocio. Your a crook and a tinykitty but I can only be upset at one??

    it makes sense: yeah it's called greed.and just because they are a business and their goal is to make money do whatever it takes right? 

    all those coal/logging companies that had company towns and took machine guns to striking workers- makes sense: they are not charities

    All those fishing companies who fished whales/cod to the brink of extinction and ruined future generations economic options but they were just making money.... so hey

    East India / Hudson Bay  companies committed genocide against indigenous peoples but we can excuse away any actions because of the inherent beneficence of making money?

    devil doesn't need an advocate
    “They aren’t being up front about what they’re doing!” and “they aren’t even hiding what they’re doing!” are in fact mutually exclusive, and I found it confusing.

    I didn’t see a lot of bragging as much as the game developers discussing the best way to hook their customers and the practices they use to do so. Some was stated explicitly and other methods were alluded to (anchoring, peer pressure, sunk cost, foot in the door, door in the face, variable ratio reinforcement, etc.). A lot of this stuff you will find in sales of all kinds and even in parenting books. Anything where you want to shape someone’s behavior.  I totally get people feeling “outraged” when they realize they have been “duped” by companies who invest millions into researching how to get you to think how they want you to think. But to compare MPQ developers to “the devil” and to compare trying to get people to spend on a match 3 game to genocide, murder and extinction are a bit of a stretch don’t you think?


  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    is Greed asking for more covers? no. Was Oliver Twist greedy for asking for porridge , sir? Is asking for a pay raise greedy? Is complaining about the high price of movie tickets these days greedy? Is it greedy to say compared to x,y,z games the resource rewards over here are markedly pitiful. it's about motives and context. 

    I think using deceptive/ predatory/ manipulative design choices is the first part of the problem. Having a developer conference where they get the best and brightest to share their tricks is the second. I found Thor to be quite smug and proud. Very similar to the video clips of the debt buying/collections conferences where they give tips on how to harass and lie. Playing 3card monty and also being insulted by the hustler.

    Taking it to an extreme is a direct response to being an apologist that tries to justify it away with a wave of the hand and say that's what businesses do.
     well golly then, I guess anything goes right? I mean they are JUST tying to make money... what could possible be wrong with that?
    You don't even have to follow that thread very far and you get into lootboxes, PTW, child marketing, etc, fairly benign repercussions. but you don't need to look too much further past that to see what happens if left unchecked or worse enabled out of some laissez faire ideology or as a crony for the companies. When someone is constantly quibbling to not accept someones stated view ; you have to take it there. How many times have you ever heard a contrarian say I'm just being the "devils advocate" here..... That is where the devil don't need one saying comes from. It is not necessary to defend bad things just to keep talking. Don't need to rebut someone who says they are emotionally drained and bored and leaving.

    I don't think that MPQ is some evil thing out to steal your children but -sometimes in some of the things they do - it's very much like a contractor who builds shoddy homes. Why does it take 6 months to get an update to the Supports store? Why not update x,y,z why not communicate etc. and if the only answer is they are trying to make money, that is simply not good enough rationale.

    remember over 100 MILLION dollars

    Back to OP: I very much enjoyed the Dear John narrative, I am saddened that so many others feel that way, I have deep sympathy with what they are going through, There are days where I realize I am so bored with daken/moonstone/rag 7 times (multiplied by 6nodes) to try and get some scraps, and I look down at my 0/5/2 sabertooth and just feel defeated because of a sense of hopelessness. I keep playing because of early childhood imprinting of Bejeweled and Spider-Man and this game is a great mix of both, BUT I get why others have gotten to the point they are at. Suggestion to those leaving? Don't delete, just set it down, at some point you might be in an airport waiting for weather to clear or stuck at superbowl Sunday or something. Keep a little distraction nearby in case of boredom but enjoy the new lease on life, come back and visit!
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,758 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    The game offers you digital rewards that you can earn or buy.  They have absolutely -0- real world value and so the devs use all the best tricks to try to convince you that you should chase them.  Like so many other game developers.

    Obviously the majority of players handle the developer's tricks well and can resist their attempts to manipulate you into spending more than you should etc.  But there are stories of player divorces, and fights with SOs, thousands of dollars OVERspent on this game, which is by many accounts one of the soft-sell games in terms of PTW etc. 

    If you can afford to blow thousands of dollars on this game, good for you and have fun.  

    The fact is that these tricks work minimally on most people, but extremely well on others who have different wiring in their heads or whatever, and get sucked into a cycle of spending too much.

    One day a couple of years ago I was on Discord when a player popped in who was asking if we liked their roster.  They had a champed Doc Ock, Spidey, and Star Lord.  Based on what they were saying, they had spent money - thousands of dollars - not even within an alliance, let alone a buy club, which allowed them to champ those 3 5's and were looking for affirmation that it was worthwhile.  I'm not even sure if they kept playing the game as they only appeared on that one day.

    It's one thing to say "things have always been this way" but modern games are selling chances to get what you want at this point and using that as a major money-making avenue.  Maybe it's a more reliable funding model than the old "sell a copy" model and maybe it helps some developers stay in business, but it also feels a bit wrong.

    Playing Gauntlet back in the day, at least you knew the quarter you put in was simply letting you continue doing the same thing.  You didn't put in a quarter and some loot box appeared letting you possibly get more health plus a better weapon or the same one you already had.  If they had, people would have been screaming "GAMBLING!".

    Now you pull out your credit card in your house and do that and no one is watching you, so it just happens with no one caring.  For every overspending story in the news, I'm sure there are countless people who don't tell anyone what has happened as they know they would be shamed and criticized.  I feel certain that is the case for some MPQ players.

    It is NOT wrong to question whether it's worth supporting games and tactics which provide avenues for people who are vulnerable to this type of manipulation, to be exploited and harmed by said tactics.  It is also not wrong to say "I prefer to engage with things that just sell me a good product vs trying to sell me something over and over."

    It's also, obviously, fine to say "this game has shown me all its cards and I prefer to find something else to do with my time.

    Best of luck to the OP and anyone one else who's had enough.
    I appreciate your post and good insight.  I would also say that the game industry is also changing drastically with what players can buy in game.  If you look at fortnight the buy options are all cosmetics.  Another new top game mode is Auto Chess games that any purchase goes towards effects and cosmetics.  There are still a lot of PTW games like Clash Royal that have turned a lot of their pay options to be more cosmetic compared to buying chests.  

    I have also seen pay to play games.  My daughter wanted to play a dragon farming game so I downloaded it and after a day of playing with her we got to a point where we had to either get 3 friends to play the game or pay money to open more space to place more dragons.  Let’s just say my daughter found a new game to play.

    i actually think MPQ has done a good job of creating a game that is very FTP friendly especially compared to other games released around the same time.
  • St1nkf1st
    St1nkf1st Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    Who thinks MPQ is greedy and just wants as much from your money as possible in order to progress should give MSF a try for some time to experience real greedyness, as a direct comparison with a Marvel roster building game.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    If you were to look at the first couple community pages of the following Marvel games,

    Battle Line
    Contest of Champion
    Strike Force

    You will realise that there are a lot commonalities or thoughts feedbacks about the game:

    1) The devs don't know how to do their jobs or the devs don't play their games
    2) The game is P2W
    3) "This game could be great but the devs..."
    4) bugs are not fixed for years
    5) X resources should be given to them instead of having to pay cash for it or they should be able to purchase it with resources gained in-game.
    6) players quitting because the devs didn't do what those players want, which is typically more resources without paying for it.
    7) complains about paying more than 50 bucks for RNG characters
    8) have to give up social life to progress in game
    8) more rebalancing instead of releasing new characters
    9) 90% of characters released are useless

    Basically, the situation can be summarised as:

    If you are a F2P player, you progress by grinding. If not, you pay more cash to progress faster with lesser grind.

    The main issue usually comes from some particular group of players who want to do neither, or another group where they think:

    1) that they should be entitled to certain bundles or updates without paying for it with hard cash or
    2)  they think they have paid enough and therefore they shouldn't need to pay or grind for resources and still able to catch up with the game
    3) they should get as much resources as those competitive players or spenders without spending or without any more grinding more.

    It's quite obviously it's not an MPQ problem, rather it's a perception problem across games of similar business model.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,101 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's quite obviously it's not an MPQ problem, rather it's a perception problem across games of similar business model.

    More likely is that it is a combination of all sorts of those things.


  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:
    It's quite obviously it's not an MPQ problem, rather it's a perception problem across games of similar business model.

    More likely is that it is a combination of all sorts of those things.


    I remember having almost identical conversations several years ago on the WoW forums. How nobody should be allowed to just buy their level 60 characters with epic gear, etc., that everyone else should have to spend countless hours grinding for their gear the same way the ant-RMT people had apparently done.

    And then there were people that said: If I have a large amount of money but very little leisure time, why shouldn't I be able to use my money to just buy a level 60 character (60, at that time) to allow me to enjoy the end-game.

    Then Deathknights came out. Then the BOA gear that scaled with your character and had XP boosts. Then being able to "gift" levels to your friends (I don't recall exactly how that worked).

    WoW's Goblins said it best: Time is money, friend.

    I'm on Day 2,010 and have probably spent ~$200 playing MPQ these past 5.5 years. That's practically nothing, compared to many players. I just Championed my eight 5* this morning. That's slow, too, but I was a very casual player for the first few years, and only just Championed my first 5* this time last year.

    I cannot think of any reason why someone shouldn't be able to use their own money to save their time and avoid the grind.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,101 Chairperson of the Boards
    JSP869 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    It's quite obviously it's not an MPQ problem, rather it's a perception problem across games of similar business model.

    More likely is that it is a combination of all sorts of those things.


    I remember having almost identical conversations several years ago on the WoW forums. How nobody should be allowed to just buy their level 60 characters with epic gear, etc., that everyone else should have to spend countless hours grinding for their gear the same way the ant-RMT people had apparently done.

    And then there were people that said: If I have a large amount of money but very little leisure time, why shouldn't I be able to use my money to just buy a level 60 character (60, at that time) to allow me to enjoy the end-game.

    Then Deathknights came out. Then the BOA gear that scaled with your character and had XP boosts. Then being able to "gift" levels to your friends (I don't recall exactly how that worked).

    WoW's Goblins said it best: Time is money, friend.

    I'm on Day 2,010 and have probably spent ~$200 playing MPQ these past 5.5 years. That's practically nothing, compared to many players. I just Championed my eight 5* this morning. That's slow, too, but I was a very casual player for the first few years, and only just Championed my first 5* this time last year.

    I cannot think of any reason why someone shouldn't be able to use their own money to save their time and avoid the grind.
    Hound tends to always phrase things in a players are at fault whilst the Dev's can do no wrong sort of way. You would have to ask them why that is. Otherwise not sure why I am being quoted.
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2019
    To be clear; MPQ is not one of the badguys here. When we talk about the slimy side ; it's like the facebook ad class action lawsuit. 
    MPQ is the best of the match 3. full stop
    It is a VERY GOOD Marvel game. I love it.  It gave us Peggy and = forever props. 
     All of these farewell speeches leave with a happiness and fondness for the game and the forum. Nobody is ever really angry at the devs decision to Not do such and such. People are leaving after THOUSANDS of days of daily play and spending that probably exceeds a majority of the FtP games. Which according to Hounds research all have the same problems/complaints. The thread diverged a little into some of the shady industry practices that for the most part, do not apply at all to MPQ. It does haz itz problemz. Players have gripes, everywhere. I agree with every reason for departures;I feel that way too! I
    I read each of these threads as a love note which is why I particularly enjoyed this one. 

    zulux21 said:

    I hope everyone that is enjoying the game continues to enjoy it and that you all have a great rest of the year.

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