*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

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Comments

  • Just because you have a roster of backup doesn't mean those backups are as good as whoever you put as your first go-to team. The fact that Spiderman keeps your A team running until you get too tired to play is obviously a problem, both financially and that it leads to placements being simply endurance contests.

    Spiderman isn't as big a problem in terms of player matchups as Ragnarok because he always hard counters himself, whereas Ragnarok this isn't necessarily true. He is a problem because he makes playing the game is boring (everyone turtles and everything turns into endurance contests). I wouldn't mind if I only need to play half the game I currently do, but that's not possible when you know nobody actually runs out of health packs so you can't just count on your superior skills when someone else can just play twice as much as you do. Spiderman is one of the key faciliators (and so was Ragnarok pre nerf) and it'd be good for everyone if he's nerfed. Even in the uncompetitive high rating area, a lot of time it'd be like you hit someone for 40 and you notice a different guy immediately hit you for 40 and this goes on for hours. Why isn't anyone stopping? Because he and I are both running Spiderman and we can do this literally forever. I wouldn't mind if a nerf to Spiderman means one of us have to blink first simply due to running out of health packs.
  • DaveyPitch wrote:

    I imagine they'll nerf his stun and bring it back to 5AP at level 5, and maybe reduce the amount of healing he does per web tile. If they do that, he'll still be a very useful character IMO.

    If they increase the cost of the stun, as expected, they don't need to decrease the healing per tile, as there will be fewer web tiles in play. That would neuter his healing ability completely (depending on the degree). It is important to look at how changes interact (like when they used to buff crit tiles and tile damage; this change would be the opposite).
  • I just got my spiderman to 5 blue after spending HP on him to try an alternate strategy against some of the 240 level missions with Daken. Mine is only level 55 but the stun is so potent that I can totally understand why people feel this way. I use him exclusively for that purpose though but it is such a slow fight when done and things can go horribly wrong by not being able to find blue tiles. It is a nerve wracking and different sort of play style. But extremely slow.
  • BaineeBainee Age Unconfirmed Posts: 139 Tile Toppler
    I hope they completely remove his heal, as well as OBW. Health Packs can be the next money sink for tourneys.
  • Bainee wrote:
    I hope they completely remove his heal, as well as OBW. Health Packs can be the next money sink for tourneys.

    icon_rolleyes.gif and they'd be removing a chunk of players as well icon_rolleyes.gif
  • All healing effects should be changed to 'prevent next X damage'. If you give people the option to turtle and grind it out, they will do that (and complain your game is too grindy in the process).
  • Phantron wrote:
    All healing effects should be changed to 'prevent next X damage'. If you give people the option to turtle and grind it out, they will do that (and complain your game is too grindy in the process).

    And how would that improve anything?

    Cuz how it ruins the arena is IMO pretty obvious: with other means of healing scrapped, as still the "play more" gains the top slots, it will go to those spending more on health packs. So the bottom line will be you can and shall buy yourself the victory.

    The non-grind-based system is referred often but I still didn't see any details or even clues what it will be and how you win a tournament actually. IMO that is not very practical to build some parts on smoke. As a first step I'd like to see one of the "fix outofcombat healing" proposals get implemented. Then stll other steps are due before healing abilities could get removed without causing too much real grief.
  • People need to really look at the damage their character takes. If Spiderman is matching all his colors, it's not unusual for him to be down to 50% or less HP after each fight. Right now, it doesn't matter because you throw a Web Bandages at the end and you're back to 100%. If healing is changed to prevent damage, if he took 50% damage he'd end the fight with 50% HP. Now the next fight you're no longer certain you can get off a Web Bandages at all before you die so you either have to heal or maybe use someone else, or take a risk that Spiderman gets downed and possibly your whole team gets downed (if you're dependent on him for the stun, which is likely the reason you had him in the first place).
  • Phantron wrote:
    People need to really look at the damage their character takes. If Spiderman is matching all his colors, it's not unusual for him to be down to 50% or less HP after each fight. Right now, it doesn't matter because you throw a Web Bandages at the end and you're back to 100%. If healing is changed to prevent damage, if he took 50% damage he'd end the fight with 50% HP. Now the next fight you're no longer certain you can get off a Web Bandages at all before you die so you either have to heal or maybe use someone else, or take a risk that Spiderman gets downed and possibly your whole team gets downed (if you're dependent on him for the stun, which is likely the reason you had him in the first place).

    That is exactly the problem I had in mind reading the OP. What makes the thing considerably worse including the playing experience. That I must make **** decision to use up a scarce health pack on a hero with 33% damage -- or see him going down.

    Please explain how it will be more fun to whom.
  • Part of the issue will resolve itself over time, which is that Spidey is the only viable option for high-level fights for stun and heal effects. OBW is the only other heal option, and if her teammates beat her on damage on her primary colors her other power of note (Espionage) becomes useless; other stunners have obvious drawbacks in the form of Countdown tiles (Cap, Hawkeye Modern), low hp (Storm Classic, BW Modern) or very high use cost and skill-up requirements (IM40, Moonstone).

    Over time, as new 3*s come along that provide alternatives, Spidey-or-die will become less predominant.
  • I don't understand why it takes longer for high hp characters to heal. Shouldn't they all be normalized to heal to full at the same rate?

    How about an option to Rejuvenate? The character cannot be used for 30 minutes but is fully healed when complete. Perhaps a rejuvenation room (or bedrooms) can be made available for all players to heal. One character can rejuvenate at a time. Players can earn or purchase additional rejuvenation rooms to rejuvenate more than one character at a time.

    This would still be different than heal packs. A heal pack restores the character NOW! A rejuvenation room still forces a player to wait.
  • DaveyPitch wrote:
    sorry, i mean"if they got spiderman nerfed too"/ that'll be sucks icon_cry.gif . my first lv100 hero just got him for 2 weeks. sure thor wolvie can end the battle sooner. but spidey is guaranteed to win undamaged icon_lol.gif though so sloooow.
    is spiderman already changed months ago? if they nerfed his healing point, no problem. at least 3 ap is acceptable. or change it like venom stun. stun all team for 4-5 ap icon_lol.gif venom only need 3 ap icon_e_geek.gif

    Venom needs 4AP at level 4 to stun an opponent, not 3AP icon_e_smile.gif Also, it seems like the devs are aiming for 5AP to be the minimum required for powers to be activated (judging from recent characters and changes), so that's my basis for thinking Spidey will need 5AP to stun someone.


    Really the reason Rags got nerfed was that he did damage, converted Red to Green super easy AND gave you AP. As for this whole "they want all powers to be 5 or more" that is based on Rags again for the same reasons - anything less than 6 basically meant people would still use him for the same things. Finally, he was a tank as he had so many HP. He was the strongest combo of tank, cannon and producer and yet people are still shocked he got hit so bad.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Key word: "so bad". Even DDD agreed that he could probably use a little tweaking up
  • Bucky76 wrote:
    Bainee wrote:
    I hope they completely remove his heal, as well as OBW. Health Packs can be the next money sink for tourneys.

    icon_rolleyes.gif and they'd be removing a chunk of players as well icon_rolleyes.gif

    I know if they nuked both those characters in that fasion, i'd leave and not look back. As i would expect many others would
  • hatesuite wrote:
    DaveyPitch wrote:
    sorry, i mean"if they got spiderman nerfed too"/ that'll be sucks icon_cry.gif . my first lv100 hero just got him for 2 weeks. sure thor wolvie can end the battle sooner. but spidey is guaranteed to win undamaged icon_lol.gif though so sloooow.
    is spiderman already changed months ago? if they nerfed his healing point, no problem. at least 3 ap is acceptable. or change it like venom stun. stun all team for 4-5 ap icon_lol.gif venom only need 3 ap icon_e_geek.gif

    Venom needs 4AP at level 4 to stun an opponent, not 3AP icon_e_smile.gif Also, it seems like the devs are aiming for 5AP to be the minimum required for powers to be activated (judging from recent characters and changes), so that's my basis for thinking Spidey will need 5AP to stun someone.


    Really the reason Rags got nerfed was that he did damage, converted Red to Green super easy AND gave you AP. As for this whole "they want all powers to be 5 or more" that is based on Rags again for the same reasons - anything less than 6 basically meant people would still use him for the same things. Finally, he was a tank as he had so many HP. He was the strongest combo of tank, cannon and producer and yet people are still shocked he got hit so bad.

    Everyone would use rag if it was 5 ap?.. Doubt that. There were always a larger amount of spiderman than there ever was ragnorak in tourney.

    Its been a week and i havent seen a single ragnorak user thats in top 5. I implore you to try ragnorak now and check for urself of he has ANY use. Let me know where you get ranked and ares' ruins touney
  • Common wrote:
    hatesuite wrote:
    DaveyPitch wrote:
    sorry, i mean"if they got spiderman nerfed too"/ that'll be sucks icon_cry.gif . my first lv100 hero just got him for 2 weeks. sure thor wolvie can end the battle sooner. but spidey is guaranteed to win undamaged icon_lol.gif though so sloooow.
    is spiderman already changed months ago? if they nerfed his healing point, no problem. at least 3 ap is acceptable. or change it like venom stun. stun all team for 4-5 ap icon_lol.gif venom only need 3 ap icon_e_geek.gif

    Venom needs 4AP at level 4 to stun an opponent, not 3AP icon_e_smile.gif Also, it seems like the devs are aiming for 5AP to be the minimum required for powers to be activated (judging from recent characters and changes), so that's my basis for thinking Spidey will need 5AP to stun someone.


    Really the reason Rags got nerfed was that he did damage, converted Red to Green super easy AND gave you AP. As for this whole "they want all powers to be 5 or more" that is based on Rags again for the same reasons - anything less than 6 basically meant people would still use him for the same things. Finally, he was a tank as he had so many HP. He was the strongest combo of tank, cannon and producer and yet people are still shocked he got hit so bad.

    Everyone would use rag if it was 5 ap?.. Doubt that. There were always a larger amount of spiderman than there ever was ragnorak in tourney.

    Its been a week and i havent seen a single ragnorak user thats in top 5. I implore you to try ragnorak now and check for urself of he has ANY use. Let me know where you get ranked and ares' ruins touney




    As I've said approximately 18 billion times before. Rag was never really OP/Broken other than his red needing 3ap cost instead of 2. He was almost perfectly balanced in regular play with an extreme advantage in LR. Now with his oversized debuff he is about 142% worthless outside of LR and perfectly balanced inside LR.
  • For Rag to Spiderman comparison, a lot more people have Spiderman with relevant covers maxed out than Ragnarok with the relevant covers maxed out. Currently, the ability for Thunderclap to feed into green is meaningless because Feral Claws is by far the strongest green skill and does not require feeding. In fact it's actually counterproductive to feed red AP into Feral Claws. For a point of comparison, Feral Claws generally still does more damage over the course of a match than Onslaught even when Ares is boosted, so you'd never feed Feral Claws due to its unique dependence on holding red and you'd never use another green skill that requires feeding greens when you have Feral Claws.

    Your characters are supposed to get hurt after matches which makes it trickier to figure out how to continue. You're not supposed to end the fight with 100% health, and it's because currently you usually do that's why PvP is a neverending grind, because you're constantly being smacked by guys who also have characters that almost always ended their fight in full health. Imagine you have a 240X3 team like the PvE enemies have. At some point, you will be able to fend off the attacks because you'd eventually down enough guys to make people give up. This is why in PvE there's considerable variation on who wins the sub-brackets in the current event, because 'grind 240X3 20 times' is not an option. You will run out of health packs before that so you got to make strategic decisions on who to bring in for what. The forced IW battles are basically the equivalent of forcing you to use your B team and to do well in the PvE events, it is crucial that your B team can hold its own too. While PvP cannot be exactly the same, there should be some similar elements that it can borrow from PvE.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah, constantly repeating yourself doesn't make it any truer phantron. The AI doesn't care about how much health you have at the end of the fight, whenever someone attacks you, it has full health. And increasing attrition really wouldn't help much on the personal level, because other than MMR bubbles, it's multiple people hitting you.

    And clearly we're reading different PvE scoring mechanisms, because other than rubberbanding, the strategy is to grind down the 240s down and then hit them again when they refresh. It's just not as dominant because it seems like people aren't trying as hard this time
  • Most of the Pve lvl240 must be grind feast. I'll grind the mission that reward 50 hp for 10 times.... It haven't drop yet... Got other rewards....
    I am only rank 3 in my bracket........

    Possibly no rubber banding this time, I am 10k pts off from the leader, and no 2000 point mission at all......
  • I prefer to be stunned than to be killed in one or two cheated attack powers. At least you could survive a stun.
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