5* cap marvel - Powers discussion

Kolence

@bluewolf
That's because the power reverts back mid turn, just like Bl4de's hunger/bloodlust. With animations turned off, I usually find those banners are helpful, except when there's just too many passives and supports that trigger at the same time I can't keep track anymore... 

randomhero1090

Have her 3/5/5 lvl 380 with 8 saved covers.  She will be my highest level cover once champed.  Which will happen one day.

Just in no rush to champ her.  Used her in PVE with her boost.  Her match damage is great, can't complain about that.  But her other powers are all very slow.  Very very slow.

Changes I would love to see....

MRH - level 5 should be 1 turn CD
MRH Passive - leave alone
EH - Add "if tile is matched or destroyed, generate 3 green AP"
PR - leave alone
GYS - leave alone

The red is extremely weak as is.  But if it was a 1 turn, it would act like Medusa's and pair well with Okoye.  Strike tile creation to work with Kitty.

I get that if her EH CD was 1 turn it would be bonkers.  I think adding the matched/destroyed part can add some creativity to the game and payoff nicely.

Polares

Her match damage when buffed is the only thing decent about her.The only thing.

I think the pretty obvious fix to most repeaters would be to have an effect in the turn they are cast (even if it is less than when the repeater gets to 0). If her red would do some damage and create some strike tiles immediately it would make it 200% better.

Her green is awful in any way possible, the repeater is EXTREMELY slow, 3 turns for just 3AP is nuts!, the damage is also very bad, even with her high match damage (also the scale with covers is bad, there is basically no justification to not run her 5/3/5 and just use somebody else green). I think her green needs to be reworked completely. 

And finally her yellow. I dont like it (personally). It tries to do too many things, and the delay in the effect it also ruins it. It delays the damage, it heals a bit (also delayed even though this one matters less as the chars is airbone), and sends someone airbone (there is really no point to it, she would need a passive to give some advantages to people airbone), which in some occasions might save one of your chars, but I think in general everybody prefer powers that help win, not help save the day when you are losing.


In general the worst about her is that everything she does is delayed, and the effects to start with are not that great. If it was wait 3 turns for the green repeater to get 9AP (3 turns - 3 matches), that would be great, and would give you some motivation to protect it.Or if her yellow would do 22k, it would not matter that much having to wait a bit (a bit like GG, even though he does the damage upfront, you need to wait to fire it twice). If she has to be slow at the very least her powers should be amazing, really, really good, not just meh like they are right now.

Vhailorx

Thought expirment.  How good would she be if every single effect she had was instaneous (and assume red did the full effect of a repeater proc and placed a repeater)?

So her red does modest damage and places some strikes with the option to do more (and passive generates a bit of yellow).

Her green operates as if at 5 covers, so a passive repeater tile for AP and an instant effect on the active component.

Her yellow does 11k AP for 8 yellow and heal a target (but sends that target airborne for 2 turns).

I think she is still decidedly mediocre with that kit (little self-accel, low damage number, even with the green nuke which requires a packed board to have a significant effect).  And the yellow is decently efficient, but hard to use because it requires send the team airborne.

I think that even if you buffed her red to do the work 2x procs of the repeater instantly (so 8ap for ~12k damage and 6 strikes), she would still not be meta.  And if you removed the airborne component of her yellow too, so it just did burst healing and 11k damage for 8 yellow, would she even be meta? 

IMO, all of those changes (ie red is a direct damage and place strike power that acts as 2x procs of the repeater, and yellow just does burst heal and direct damager.  Green always acts as if it had 5 covers, with passive repeater-based AP gen and a direct effect active component) would put her on par with JJ, but I would still prefer JJ for her passive that does significant damage and generates or me just in the normal course of play.

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

GrimSkald

I honestly like it when they think outside of the box with the 5*s, in particular giving them a passive that does things under certain circumstances.  In Carol's case, I think they missed an opportunity to give her a passive that generates something (strikes, attacks, or AP maybe?) whenever a Repeater was destroyed.  She generates her own, and it's nice to get some compensation for when they're destroyed, but if it's both friendly and enemy it can make for some interesting combos.

AlexR

Vhailorx said:

(...)

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

Honestly, that would explain so much. And yeah, I'm not strictly speaking a vet, but my experience with these randomly-placed active 2-3 turn repeater powers is more that I often struggle to get them to survive to proc even once, nevermind 3-5 times. Randomly placed multi-turn tiles in general have really bad survivability, which is why the better active multi-turn cd powers either let you place them manually for better survivability or give you some effect when they're matched.

Vhailorx

AlexR said:

Vhailorx said:

(...)

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

Honestly, that would explain so much. And yeah, I'm not strictly speaking a vet, but my experience with these randomly-placed active 2-3 turn repeater powers is more that I often struggle to get them to survive to proc even once, nevermind 3-5 times. Randomly placed multi-turn tiles in general have really bad survivability, which is why the better active multi-turn cd powers either let you place them manually for better survivability or give you some effect when they're matched.

Just clarify, I don't intend the term "vet" to be a snobby, exclusive way to igore the experience of some players.  I just mean those players who have entered the 3*/4* playspace and actually have enough exposure to these repeater tile powers to have an opinion on how they work at all. 

My apologies if it felt like I was trying to privilege some subset of opinions (other than good opinions.  I do privilege those! ).

GrimSkald

AlexR said:

Vhailorx said:

(...)

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

Honestly, that would explain so much. And yeah, I'm not strictly speaking a vet, but my experience with these randomly-placed active 2-3 turn repeater powers is more that I often struggle to get them to survive to proc even once, nevermind 3-5 times. Randomly placed multi-turn tiles in general have really bad survivability, which is why the better active multi-turn cd powers either let you place them manually for better survivability or give you some effect when they're matched.

Oh yes, I definitely think the devs weight both CDs and Repeaters too much.  In general, so long as you are keeping an eye on the board, you can get one turn out of a specific tile (whatever it is,) but any particular tile's survivability goes way down after one turn.  It seems to me that after three turns any particular tile generally has about a 50/50 chance to survive.

If someone who is good with statistics could give us more information I'd be very interested, actually.

AlexR

Vhailorx said:

AlexR said:

Vhailorx said:

(...)

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

Honestly, that would explain so much. And yeah, I'm not strictly speaking a vet, but my experience with these randomly-placed active 2-3 turn repeater powers is more that I often struggle to get them to survive to proc even once, nevermind 3-5 times. Randomly placed multi-turn tiles in general have really bad survivability, which is why the better active multi-turn cd powers either let you place them manually for better survivability or give you some effect when they're matched.

Just clarify, I don't intend the term "vet" to be a snobby, exclusive way to igore the experience of some players.  I just mean those players who have entered the 3*/4* playspace and actually have enough exposure to these repeater tile powers to have an opinion on how they work at all. 

My apologies if it felt like I was trying to privilege some subset of opinions (other than good opinions.  I do privilege those! ).

Lol, no worries and no need to apologise! I personally tend to think of vets as 5* players or at least 1000+ day players, so I'd hesitate to call myself a vet and felt like pre-facing that statement with a disclaimer. Especially with the comparable high amount of 5* players on the forum. (I'm "only" a 4* player.) But your post didn't feel snobby at all even with my assumption, haha-- we're talking about the power-set of a 5* after all, so using vets' comments as a guideline to how well the 5* works in practise made perfect sense to me. Thanks for clarifying though! (=

Vhailorx

GrimSkald said:

AlexR said:

Vhailorx said:

(...)

Something is deeply wrong with the dev's design budget that repeater-based powers are still weak when translated to instant, direct effect powers.  It seems like Demi budgets these active, 2-3 turn repeater powers assuming they will proc 3-5 times per cast.  But that in no way matches my experience with these powers (and I think my experience is fairly representative given all the vet comments here).

Honestly, that would explain so much. And yeah, I'm not strictly speaking a vet, but my experience with these randomly-placed active 2-3 turn repeater powers is more that I often struggle to get them to survive to proc even once, nevermind 3-5 times. Randomly placed multi-turn tiles in general have really bad survivability, which is why the better active multi-turn cd powers either let you place them manually for better survivability or give you some effect when they're matched.

Oh yes, I definitely think the devs weight both CDs and Repeaters too much.  In general, so long as you are keeping an eye on the board, you can get one turn out of a specific tile (whatever it is,) but any particular tile's survivability goes way down after one turn.  It seems to me that after three turns any particular tile generally has about a 50/50 chance to survive.

If someone who is good with statistics could give us more information I'd be very interested, actually.

Yeah, I would love to see some robust data about expected tile life expectancy. 

Obviously board location makes a huge difference (i.e. there is a reason we all place CDs in the lower corners), and I suspect that team composition matters a lot too (which colors teams are chasing will affect the expected life of a tile for any given color).  I doubt Demi collects that type of data, but if they did start doing so, I would imagine they could get a data set more than large enough to really dig into the details and get some useful insights.  There must be several million (if not billion) data points made each day across all of mpq.

Warbringa

I think the devs are too caught up in the theory that repeater tiles are good because they can keep producing an effect over time.  In reality, as pointed out in the post many times, matches generally don't last long enough to have them fire more than once...if....the tiles are matched away first.  Perhaps repeater tile powers should be given the AP cost  of 3-5 AP, something really low so you can actually fire them really early in a match? Maybe then they would actually be more useful and provide more team combinations?

Ok, what about this solution for repeater tiles.  Every turn of the countdown they do their effect and when the repeater tile hits zero, you get all of your 80% of your AP back that you used to cast it (much like 3* Caps shield countdown tiles).  Would this make repeaters way more effective and still be fair?  Or would it not matter since they would still be considered too slow?  I think it would make them much more difficult to handle knowing that effect happens every single round for x rounds.  I also believe almost every repeater tile should be allowed to be placed manually as opposed to random, unless it has a built in fortification at placement.

The Viceroy Returns

Just as anecdotal evidence, my 3 4 5 Marvel in this PVE has had her Red CD tile matched or destroyed all the time.  It's to the point where I don't even want to use it anymore, and just save up for 5 Thor's or Okoye's Red instead (which are both much better powers to begin with).
It barely survives long enough to proc ONCE, let alone more than one.  3 Turns is forever, and even the Green CD tile gets matched away pretty easily, though not as irritating as you didn't put AP investment into it first.

And this is even happens on all Goon nodes, as cascades and Match-4's and 5's love to take it out, even when you try to avoid it.  5 Star Thor certainly contributes to this for sure...
Still, these two powers should have fortified status by default, or some positive effect that triggers when they get matched AND destroyed.  Other character have this, so why not a 5 Star, who in theory is more powerful than lower tiered characters? 

Even with some fairly minor buff tweaks as many have suggested above, she could become very good.  But as is now, she's in the somewhat large tier of characters that is above the 5 Star Garbage (Banner Hulk, Wasp, etc.).

A resounded "meh' (and I don't mean Main Event Hulk).
I think another reason why everyone is so disappointed is that it been a good while since there has been a clear cut very good 5 Star released, and we were all assuming 5 Star Captain Marvel would be it.  Guess we are left waiting...

DAZ0273

I don't think it helps at all that both Mean Right Hook and Photonic Rush sound like they should be good powers. I know that is purely psychological but it feeds into player expectation. When you think about how satisfying it is to land an Iron Fist punch in this game and down an opponent, Cap Marvel's should be a whole scale above that but it more often than not just fizzles out. I just don't feel that repeaters suit either of these powers thematically, let alone in terms of effectiveness.