State of the game from a longtime casual player

JSP869

What if they returned to a slightly different way of the old style of vaulting?

The Latest Legends vault could have the current three 5*s and the latest twelve 4-stars, and that's it. It's cost would remain the same, at 25 CP.

The Classic Legends vault could have the rest of the 5*s and the other 4*s, and its cost would remain the same, being 20 CP.

And then there'd be a Classic 4*s Vault with only the Classic 4*s, no 5*s, with Pulls from this Vault costing 10 CP.

Thoughts?

Therealsmkspy

DAZ0273 said:

The problem with vaulting is that yes, it benefits new players but it benefits older ones even more. When vaulting first came in I was transitioning and it hit me hard as the characters I was most near to completing were suddenly gone. Now though, I would LOVE vaulting to come back, it would make SHIELD Training preparation a complete doddle and I wouldn't have to play SCL9 for new releases to try and get covers from placement. However I am a day 1200+ player, not really who the Devs should be aiming solutions to dilution at and I have the majority of the older characters already champed or in a decent position.

It would also widen the gap on PvE when classics are used as essentials although if new meta 4* were released then PvP would become viable for newer players as it did during vaulting.

I was in the same position with around 11-12 champed 4s, but vaulting proved to be even more of a boon to my roster than the path I had been on before.

It was worth giving up chasing Elektra, Mr. Fantastic, and Drax covers (to name a few) for the slew of great characters they released during the vaulting peroid. 

I champed characters faster, gained resources faster, and overall it reengaged me with the game again. Thing that worked against vaulting for a lot of people seemed to be hoarding. Taking full advantage of vaulting really meant not hoarding so one could catch up to having most of the twelve already champed whenever a new 4 entered and the oldest got vaulted. 

IMO, that proved to be a fair trade off as pre-vaulting there was an obvious path of newer characters having low pull rates for the first several months after their release.

Edit: I still the simplest solution just to fight dilution would be to bring back the 4x multiplier for new releases. Scale it down from 12 to 6 if the devs are so concerned with giving away to many rewards. 

HoundofShadow

I don't see how vaulting helps casual players solve dilution problem and the challenge of champing 4* that they want. I think the playstyle of casual players whose posts I read on both forums can be generally summarised as:

Common playstyle of casual players
1) play PvP to 575 or 10CP
2) play PvE till full progression
3) possibly not in top alliance

They are always going to miss out:
For PvP progression rewards
1) 1 4* cover 
2) 2 PvP tokens

In a year, they will miss out about 120 4* covers and 240 PvP tokens or the equivalent or estimate of 240/14 = 17 additional 4* covers.

As for lack of 2* or 3* covers gained from placement in PvP, all these adds up over time, which in turn affects 4* progression.

For PvEs, it's going to be difficult to gauge.All theses CP in sub placements, all these small extra tokens here and there and 4* covers add up over time.

Vaulting is unlikely to help casual players.

A way to relook at solutions for casual players could be:

How can devs help players with the above playstyle get more 4* covers, without having to play more.

1) Increasing the odds to get 4* from heroic tokens will widen the gaps between casual and competitive players even further. We have lightning rounds running every week that rewards up to 4 Heroic tokens for each round.

2) Lowering the cost to purchase 4* covers with CP from 120 to ???

3) Bring back buying of 4* covers via hero points? However, this would turn it into a p2w model?

And other more...

It still boils down to how competitive the players play.

DAZ0273

Therealsmkspy said:

Edit: I still the simplest solution just to fight dilution would be to bring back the 4x multiplier for new releases. Scale it down from 12 to 6 if the devs are so concerned with giving away to many rewards. 

This was always my prefered solution to Vaulting, obviously the Devs have their metrics but it seemed the best half way measure and I don't recall anybody ever complaining about it.

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

I don't see how vaulting helps casual players solve dilution problem and the challenge of champing 4* that they want. I think the playstyle of casual players whose posts I read on both forums can be generally summarised as:

Common playstyle of casual players
1) play PvP to 575 or 10CP
2) play PvE till full progression
3) possibly not in top alliance

They are always going to miss out:
For PvP progression rewards
1) 1 4* cover 
2) 2 PvP tokens

In a year, they will miss out about 120 4* covers and 240 PvP tokens or the equivalent or estimate of 240/14 = 17 additional 4* covers.

As for lack of 2* or 3* covers gained from placement in PvP, all these adds up over time, which in turn affects 4* progression.

For PvEs, it's going to be difficult to gauge.All theses CP in sub placements, all these small extra tokens here and there and 4* covers add up over time.

Vaulting is unlikely to help casual players.

A way to relook at solutions for casual players could be:

How can devs help players with the above playstyle get more 4* covers, without having to play more.

1) Increasing the odds to get 4* from heroic tokens will widen the gaps between casual and competitive players even further. We have lightning rounds running every week that rewards up to 4 Heroic tokens for each round.

2) Lowering the cost to purchase 4* covers with CP from 120 to ???

3) Bring back buying of 4* covers via hero points? However, this would turn it into a p2w model?

And other more...

It still boils down to how competitive the players play.

The effect of vaulting to casual players is that it makes their 10CP earned per PvP more valuable. If there are only 12 4* available + 3 5* then they know they will have a decent chance at getting a cover for a character they can build, rather than a random red cover for 4* Elektra that puts her at 1/0/1 for the next 3 years. That can be further enhanced via bonus heroes.

It happened before - armed with 4* characters that even newer players could cover and champ transformed PvP and effectively overwrit the meta several times as the next one came along.

Obviously the main point would be how good the 4* that are unvaulted are. If Vaulting started tomorrow, you would have quite a few in that 12 that would be worth chasing and could elevate play. The Dev's were wise enough last time to make sure that the new 4#s released were mostly good enough to stifle player complaints, they would need to do that again.

PartyOfFore

I don't need more 4* covers, just some way to focus the limited pulls I have on a smaller set of 4* characters. Instead of pulling from a pool of all 80+ 4*, let me pick from a pool of 10-20.  At least then I have some chance of covering the characters I like and make some progress.  

Malcrof

JSP869 said:

What if they returned to a slightly different way of the old style of vaulting?

The Latest Legends vault could have the current three 5*s and the latest twelve 4-stars, and that's it. It's cost would remain the same, at 25 CP.

The Classic Legends vault could have the rest of the 5*s and the other 4*s, and its cost would remain the same, being 20 CP.

And then there'd be a Classic 4*s Vault with only the Classic 4*s, no 5*s, with Pulls from this Vault costing 10 CP.

Thoughts?

Not saying this as a mod, but as a player, toss this in suggestions, it needs to be seen! I love it. Hoarding tokens waiting for characters to be unvaulted was both tremendous fun, and anxiety inducing..chasing a cover the day before vaulting etc..   I do miss it, and it was an amazing cure for what we thought at the time was dilution (little did we know)

JackTenrec

If you don't want your life (or wallet, or both) completely owned by MPQ, you have to embrace the long game.  The only real obstacle to F2P players is roster slots, since once you pay the roster tax, you have an infinite amount of time to accumulate both covers and ISO.  Play as much as you can to qualify for HP rewards, set up farms, and wait.

I'm somewhere in the 1700+ day count, have everyone (except Rescue) rostered, have maybe a half-dozen or so 3* not maxed, have maybe a dozen or so 4* not champed, and this is despite not being a T10 PvE player (even in SCL7, and I have, in my younger and unwiser days, tried), hardly ever participating in PvP, and not being in a highly-ranked alliance.  I typically play PvE to progression (but not with an eye to placement), don't hoard, exclusively pull classics (because I'd rather get 25% more pulls), and I only use bonus heroes to try to finish undercovered characters.

Dilution is bad, no doubt about that.  But the numbers can show up if you can wait them out.

Therealsmkspy

It's far too easy for us 1000+ day players to say "embrace the long game." 

This game is five, going on six years old. The long game really isn't an opinion at this point when it is hemorrhaging vets and newish players quickly abandon ship when faced with the reality of 4* dilution & 5* game play will likely never happen for them. Not to mention that after two or three months of playing, a new player quickly realizes that it's just a rotation of a small number of rerun pves and pvp really is just boring. 

The sprint not marathon train is long gone. 

Scofie

As a casual player I might be tempted to spend 25CP on LL stores if the above (JSP869's idea) were implemented. Personally I'm never going to cover latest 5* before they leave LL so I'm just pulling Classics as 85% of the time it's the same outcome for 80% of the cost and the other 15% of the time it's a usable cover for a 5* that will be closer to championing than any other. Faced with the recent situation of lack of Thanos covers, I'd certainly have spent the extra 5CP trying. 

JSP869

Malcrof said:

JSP869 said:

What if they returned to a slightly different way of the old style of vaulting?

The Latest Legends vault could have the current three 5*s and the latest twelve 4-stars, and that's it. It's cost would remain the same, at 25 CP.

The Classic Legends vault could have the rest of the 5*s and the other 4*s, and its cost would remain the same, being 20 CP.

And then there'd be a Classic 4*s Vault with only the Classic 4*s, no 5*s, with Pulls from this Vault costing 10 CP.

Thoughts?

Not saying this as a mod, but as a player, toss this in suggestions, it needs to be seen! I love it. Hoarding tokens waiting for characters to be unvaulted was both tremendous fun, and anxiety inducing..chasing a cover the day before vaulting etc..   I do miss it, and it was an amazing cure for what we thought at the time was dilution (little did we know)

Thanks for the suggestion, and...done: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/78507/vaults-latest-legends-classic-legends-classic-4-stars

Scofie

JackTenrec said:

If you don't want your life (or wallet, or both) completely owned by MPQ, you have to embrace the long game.  The only real obstacle to F2P players is roster slots, since once you pay the roster tax, you have an infinite amount of time to accumulate both covers and ISO.  Play as much as you can to qualify for HP rewards, set up farms, and wait.

I'm somewhere in the 1700+ day count, have everyone (except Rescue) rostered, have maybe a half-dozen or so 3* not maxed, have maybe a dozen or so 4* not champed, and this is despite not being a T10 PvE player (even in SCL7, and I have, in my younger and unwiser days, tried), hardly ever participating in PvP, and not being in a highly-ranked alliance.  I typically play PvE to progression (but not with an eye to placement), don't hoard, exclusively pull classics (because I'd rather get 25% more pulls), and I only use bonus heroes to try to finish undercovered characters.

Dilution is bad, no doubt about that.  But the numbers can show up if you can wait them out.

I'm with you on this and we have the same playing style. I've been able to keep up with 4* champs broadly speaking but it's slipping now. I'm still on 11 Magick covers and 12 Namor (2/5/5). Thanos and Ronin are about the same as Talos was in their respective times. But the chances of pulling their covers decreases with every release. The devs got criticised for putting new characters as essentials more regularly in PvE to give out their covers but that for me solved a bit of the problem even if it were less interesting to play. 

Palookaville

Just change heroic tokens to a guaranteed 3*/4* and get rid of any chance of a 2* character.

Standard - 1 or 2 star (or keep it 1-3 maybe)
Elite - 2 or 3 star
Heroic - 3 or 4 star
Legendary - 4 or 5 star

With the heroic 10 packs still something people look forward to in the season, if the rewards were better (IE no 2 stars and a better chance of 4 stars) that could help the 4* dilution problem immensely 

ZootSax

HoundofShadow said:

Common playstyle of casual players
1) play PvP to 575 or 10CP
2) play PvE till full progression
3) possibly not in top alliance

--- (clip) ---

Vaulting is unlikely to help casual players.

I actually play noticeably less than you describe for a "casual" player:
1) Rarely play PVP at all, but when I do maybe I'll hit 40 wins once every 4-5 seasons, for a particularly elusive cover of a character I really like.   I rarely play the PVP season simulator much, except to screw around, so again it's probably once every 4-5 months, at best, that I get the cover there.
2) PVE to the 8CP, except for DPvsMPQ where the same effort gets max progression due to only 48hr subs. 
3) In an alliance that has never come close to Top 1,000, much less is top tier by forum standards.  

Additionally, I only have 127 characters rostered since I don't care about quite a few characters, so I also routinely miss out on a lot of CP from PVE essentials, 3* champion rewards, DPD Behemoth Burrito and the like.  I also stopped farming my 2*'s since it was getting boring and I was already sitting on relatively massive hero point and iso-8 stockpiles.

In spite of this, I have 45 4* champions (excluding Devil Dino & Howard, who are irrelevant to this discussion).  I started playing before 4Thor's release, so I had a HUGE advantage over many players in covering earlier characters, with regards to total number of heroic (or other) token pulls when fewer 4* characters were available.

Of these 45 champions, 28 spent at least one season during full and/or "latest 12" vaulting (I couldn't find the release announcement for vaulting, but Kate Bishop was the oldest character I know was vaulted and I believe Ghost was the first character stuck in full dilution).  For the remaining 17 characters, 15 were released prior to Kate Bishop and ONLY TWO has come in the current era of diluted tokens.  For both characters, Domino & Ghost, it required purchasing at least three covers at 120CP a pop plus playing their PVP's to 900pts/40wins & 2,000/75 wins in the PVP season simulator (which, again, I almost never do, plus I already had a robust 4* lineup at my disposal to accomplish the task, which a newer "casual" player would not) to actually get them across the finish line.

I admit, this is only one person's experience, but I can't possibly see how anyone can totally discount how vaulting could possibly help casual players.

tiomono

Therealsmkspy said:

It's far too easy for us 1000+ day players to say "embrace the long game." 

This game is five, going on six years old. The long game really isn't an opinion at this point when it is hemorrhaging vets and newish players quickly abandon ship when faced with the reality of 4* dilution & 5* game play will likely never happen for them. Not to mention that after two or three months of playing, a new player quickly realizes that it's just a rotation of a small number of rerun pves and pvp really is just boring. 

The sprint not marathon train is long gone. 

Oddly though many think it's easier to skip the 4* tier and jump straight to 5*'s. With stores offering increased odds on 3 specific 5*'s it's pretty apparent that's the fastest way to get to 5* land. Just hoard till your ready to bust and pick the three 5*'s you want.

4* dillution definitely needs a better solution than just bonus heros.

DAZ0273

ZootSax said:

HoundofShadow said:

Common playstyle of casual players
1) play PvP to 575 or 10CP
2) play PvE till full progression
3) possibly not in top alliance

--- (clip) ---

Vaulting is unlikely to help casual players.

I actually play noticeably less than you describe for a "casual" player:
1) Rarely play PVP at all, but when I do maybe I'll hit 40 wins once every 4-5 seasons, for a particularly elusive cover of a character I really like.   I rarely play the PVP season simulator much, except to screw around, so again it's probably once every 4-5 months, at best, that I get the cover there.
2) PVE to the 8CP, except for DPvsMPQ where the same effort gets max progression due to only 48hr subs. 
3) In an alliance that has never come close to Top 1,000, much less is top tier by forum standards.  

Additionally, I only have 127 characters rostered since I don't care about quite a few characters, so I also routinely miss out on a lot of CP from PVE essentials, 3* champion rewards, DPD Behemoth Burrito and the like.  I also stopped farming my 2*'s since it was getting boring and I was already sitting on relatively massive hero point and iso-8 stockpiles.

In spite of this, I have 45 4* champions (excluding Devil Dino & Howard, who are irrelevant to this discussion).  I started playing before 4Thor's release, so I had a HUGE advantage over many players in covering earlier characters, with regards to total number of heroic (or other) token pulls when fewer 4* characters were available.

Of these 45 champions, 28 spent at least one season during full and/or "latest 12" vaulting (I couldn't find the release announcement for vaulting, but Kate Bishop was the oldest character I know was vaulted and I believe Ghost was the first character stuck in full dilution).  For the remaining 17 characters, 15 were released prior to Kate Bishop and ONLY TWO has come in the current era of diluted tokens.  For both characters, Domino & Ghost, it required purchasing at least three covers at 120CP a pop plus playing their PVP's to 900pts/40wins & 2,000/75 wins in the PVP season simulator (which, again, I almost never do, plus I already had a robust 4* lineup at my disposal to accomplish the task, which a newer "casual" player would not) to actually get them across the finish line.

I admit, this is only one person's experience, but I can't possibly see how anyone can totally discount how vaulting could possibly help casual players.

I don't even play PvE to full progression unless I like the event and likewise I am still here like you, so I think Hound is pretty far removed from what a "casual player" is to be honest.

HoundofShadow

As I mentioned, I read posts from both forums and typically, I see players mentioning that they play till 575 in PvP and full progression in PvE. It's my observation over the last 1 year plus. Maybe, RNG had me lucked into posts of casual players who play PvP into 575 and full progression frequently. 

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

As I mentioned, I read posts from both forums and typically, I see players mentioning that they play till 575 in PvP and full progression in PvE. It's my observation over the last 1 year plus. Maybe, RNG had me lucked into posts of casual players who play PvP into 575 and full progression frequently. 

You still don't seem to grasp what we are saying: those players are not "casual" by any definition we are applying. Apples and Oranges maybe but your definition of "casual" is pretty dedicated.

Kolence

Playing pvp to 10cp reward (whether by points or wins) and especially playing pve to full progression is much more than trully casual players do, in my experience, tracking our alliance and individual scores for a year and  a half now. More or less. And this has been a top 100 pvp team for a year now and maybe half of us will play pve to full progression or more, especially for a new release.
Casual players are likely playing pvp to that cp only if they don't accidentally skip the event altogether and then if the featured or weekly boosted characters are those they have better covered and leveled. And in pve, they might get to the 4* cover, maaybe first cp reward. But could also just hit some nodes here and there, possibly only getting a couple cp each day that way.

DAZ0273

Kolence said:

Playing pvp to 10cp reward (whether by points or wins) and especially playing pve to full progression is much more than trully casual players do, in my experience, tracking our alliance and individual scores for a year and  a half now. More or less. And this has been a top 100 pvp team for a year now and maybe half of us will play pve to full progression or more, especially for a new release.
Casual players are likely playing pvp to that cp only if they don't accidentally skip the event altogether and then if the featured or weekly boosted characters are those they have better covered and leveled. And in pve, they might get to the 4* cover, maaybe first cp reward. But could also just hit some nodes here and there, possibly only getting a couple cp each day that way.

This is 100% my understanding of "casual".