Non-offensive working title about dilution.

helix72
helix72 Posts: 996 Critical Contributor
edited May 2019 in MPQ General Discussion
We here at MPQ suffer from a commonly shared affliction: Acute Dilution Disorder. The symptoms and their side effects are well known and widely discussed across the forum. But today I discovered a new manifestation that hadn't really hit me before: the boost list.

With such a large and ever-increasing population of 4s but a boost list that remains at only 5 characters, the chances of an all-dud boost list or one that consists of only characters I do not have champed continues to increase. And with the coming boost list coupled with Strange Sights, while I won't sleep on my champed Wasp, I don't know that she or the others (none of whom I have champed) give me any degree of confidence of being able to get through CL 9 at anything less than a snail's pace and with heavy health pack usage.

Has anyone else felt this symptom? Perhaps a support group is in order.

Not for those kind of supports ;)
Mod Edit: Currently finding a better title, will correct it when it is approved.

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Comments

  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's a struggle for anyone transitioning into 4-star play. It makes PvP extremely difficult for quite a while. Obviously a lot of vets experienced this when they went through it, and dilution has only increased the duration of of these difficulties.

    The only advice I can give to players is to champ as many 3-stars as you can (if not all of them) before transitioning to 4-star play. You'll be leaning on your boosted 3-stars to help get you through this period. I certainly did.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    When I started playing MPQ Nov 2017 some of the common concerns that veterans had for new players are:

    1) HP cost for roster slots
    2) x number of 4* that new players can never catch up with
    3) Iso-8 cost

    The general attitude is: new players can never catch up with all or most of the above (without spending tons of money).

    Today, I'm sitting with over 20 champed 4* (~25% of them) and every single 4* rostered, have excess HP and over 2 million Iso-8, without spending a single dime. And I'm not the only one who have done this.

    The common assumption by many is that the goal of (new) players is to champ every single 4* and/or 5* released. I think this is the source of misery. If players' goal is to play with their favourite characters, what they could do is to plan in advance (BH their favourite characters for each tier) and stick with their plan, they should have no problem champing the characters that they like. Champing other 4* or 5* characters is secondary goal.

    As long as the perception that every player's goal is to champ every single 4* or 5* characters within x timeframe remains, no solution will solve this dilution easily.

    The latest 12 4*  solution benefits mostly the veterans and new players, but new players will have problem covering older characters. 

    They could do a rotation like what they did with support or special stores with those characters getting increased odds. Since the number of new 4* and 5* a year is more or less constant, doing a rotation at x frequency with y number of 4* could be good. The solution to dilution must be able to adapt with change.

    Slowing down releases of new 4* doesn't seem possible. It could be inked this way in the contract signed with Marvel. I doubt it's a coincidence that all three Marvel games released Rescue as their new in-game characters. 
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think what @HoundofShadow is trying to say is: marathon not sprint. It takes dedicated, daily play if your goal is to cover and champ the entirety of the 4-star tier. It may take an amount of time measured in years, but it can be done.

    The concern is that amount of time grows with every additional 4-star released and that at some point the sheer amount of 4-stars will go over a tipping point of a newer player's ability to earn ISO and 'catch-up'. But I think what isn't as obvious is the growth of ISO availability has somewhat mirrored the growth of characters. I can earn more ISO in a day than I could earn in a week when this game started. It's a delicate balance. You want to provide the players with enough resources to advance, but at the same time you want to keep them hungry. Its what keeps us coming back every day and part of what has allowed this game to sustain for almost 6 years now - something no other mobile Marvel game has accomplished.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2019
    Dormammu said:
    I think what (redacted) is trying to say is: marathon not sprint. It takes dedicated, daily play if your goal is to cover and champ the entirety of the 4-star tier. It may take an amount of time measured in years, but it can be done.

    The concern is that amount of time grows with every additional 4-star released and that at some point the sheer amount of 4-stars will go over a tipping point of a newer player's ability to earn ISO and 'catch-up'. But I think what isn't as obvious is the growth of ISO availability has somewhat mirrored the growth of characters. I can earn more ISO in a day than I could earn in a week when this game started. It's a delicate balance. You want to provide the players with enough resources to advance, but at the same time you want to keep them hungry. Its what keeps us coming back every day and part of what has allowed this game to sustain for almost 6 years now - something no other mobile Marvel game has accomplished.
    I think plenty of people who see those posts know exactly what was being implied.  There are just people who like to be contrarian, but ironically proves the dilution imo.

    Around *edit 500+* days in, and only 20+ 4* champs?  So they counted, and know it is more than 20, but couldn't put the exact number? Weird.  Also, as mentioned above, the beginning 7 months were during vaulting, which would have *definitely* had an impact in regards to getting a good head start on several champs, while also saving hp costs at the most crucial time for players: the beginning.  Instead of needing hp on 70 different 4*, they needed it for 12, saving their hp to be able to roster more 3*, and quicker.  

    I do agree that the iso has gotten better.  If you play enough, you keep up, for the most part.  The problem is that the availability of characters has not kept up.  Thus, dilution, and the topic of this thread.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Dormammu
    While it is true that there is more iso in the game than at the beginning, the rewards have not been touched in a long time in terms of iso or anything else (September 2017) - other than adding and increasing red iso - while dozens of characters have been added in that time.

    It is actually easier than ever to have an "iso surplus" as a newer player, because the best strategy is to only champ fully covered characters, and covering 4's is harder than ever now with dilution.  You can take them to 209 of course, but after that you're probably better off saving the iso.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    OJSP said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Wow! So in 2.5 years you've managed to champ 25% of the 4* tier? Only 7.5 years more to go if they don't release anymore!
    Not trying to be pedantic, but since 2 people have quoted the figure.. I felt the urge to correct it.

    It's actually 1.5 years (around 500 days) from November 2017. 

    I don't think it invalidates either side of the arguments, but I just wanted to provide a better perspective, as a difference of one year in playing time is quite a significant point if we are arguing about someone's progress.
    Thanks for the correction, I edited my comment to reflect bad math.  

    It certainly takes a little wind out of my sails, it did seem like a long time to not make progress lol. 

    I still wouldn't brag about that much progress as a positive thing over 500+ days, because it still doesn't seem like a lot.  Compare that to the person who wanted to get to a champed 5* and quit again.  I think it took almost a year and almost $800.  Neither should be good optics for newer players.
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Therealsmkspy said:
    The "marathon not a sprint" argument fails completely for one simple fact.

    This is a five year old game. A very old game for a mobile app. 

    If any part of the goal is to maintain and keep new players, then progress needs to be faster than it ever has been before. 

    By slowing down to a snail's pace, they are pretty much shouting out to new players to play another Marvel game still in its youth. Moreover, it certainly doesn't help that the devs are on complete autopilot and simply seem content to not improve many factors that are long overdue to be addressed. 
    This is definitely the only game I've ever played to date where it takes 2+ years of dedicated play before you're ready to engage at the highest level of the game. I'm not sure which is more culpable between requiring 13 specific "covers" before you can fully level a character, the fact that pulling these covers is subject to rng in pools of increasing dilution, or just the sheer amount of characters in the game and resources required to keep them all rostered. The game has definitely improved in a lot of ways don't get me wrong - it's awesome that newer players will never know the fear of needing to acquire 1K HP or 400K Iso (my 4-star champs are so few and far between I legit forgot the iso required), but progressing in the game just gets increasingly daunting with every new release for someone who doesn't have a solid base already. I champed my first 4-star character in early 2017....they've probably added somewhere around 30+ 4-stars since then, maybe more. 
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think making the crash of the titans daily would be a good place to start. Instead of earning a legendary token it gives a designated color of the 4 star you are using.

    Right now it takes roughly 420 days to cycle through all the four stars.
    Daily means it will only take 84 days to cycle thru all of them.

    This should have been addressed ages ago. I feel the longer they delay, the less chance will we ever get a resolution. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Even though I was still within that 7 months of latest 12, I was focusing my time on rostering and champing  2* and 3*, so I didn't really benefit from that. It's a different story if I started off the game in Nov 2017 with a few thousand CPs and I was pulling LTs or Classics. The only 4* that really benefits from that Latest 12 was largely Rogue gained from Heroic Token's because I was mostly focusing my BH on her. I chose her because I figured that she could help me to tank damage for my 3* in PvP while transitioning to 4*.

    Secondly, I missed the train on taking advantage of the Latest 12 because I pulled my Classic tokens for 4* in Dec 18. The rest of my champed 4* are roughly made up of a 50/50 split of classic and latest characters (mostly gotten by placements and progressions).

    Dilution is a big pain point for perfectionists and completionists. I can see why dilution is a problem for them but it shouldn't be a problem for players like me whose main goal in the game is to play with my favourite characters and characters with fun abilities that I like. I can't be bothered if my Kate Bishop is stuck at 1 or 2 covers for the next 2 years because her abilities don't appeal to me. 

    I think the factors that affect the kind of solutions to solve truly solve 4* dilution depends on these:

    1) what milestones the players usually achieve in PvPs and PvEs
    2) how competitively they play
    3) how often they play
    4) their opinions on how fast they should be able to champ 4* and 5*
    5) and others

    Even if the devs brought back latest 12, there will still be players in here who are going to say that dilution is still a problem. Simply because they believe that they should be able to champ all these 4* or 5* characters at rate X within a certain timeframe, but it turns out to be X + Y rate. 

    I think the rate of new 4* releases has to do with the contract signed with Marvel. It is something that is unlikely to change since it is legally binding for a fixed period of years. Unless... those players pushing for the devs to slow down 4* releases are willing to pool together their own money to pay the compensation or losses incurred or legal fee on behalf of the devs, which could total up to a few hundred thousand dollars.


  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,369 Chairperson of the Boards
    In pure economic terms, a 4* cover today is not worth as much as a 4* cover 4 years ago.

    I somewhat agree with the points above about choosing the 4* and not having to complete or champ everyone. That's true and earlier on in the game I had to sell 3* covers due to lack of roster slots and make my choices to keep 4* as they were really rare. But the game now has shifted and these covers are required to access other parts of the game. Put in a daily crash and there will be newer members of the player base that are unable to compete several days a week. Or certainly not in one day. I have taken days to complete a crash with a poorly covered 4*.

    Dilution is not necessarily the issue here - indeed it has to continue the economic prosperity of the game. It is the supply chain that just hasn't been updated to cope with the demand. It is a fine balance here. Too generous and nobody spends attracting the economic viability of the game or newer players cannot buy enough roster slots, too stringent and it alienates the veteran player base and chokes interest in new characters. I from the personal standpoint of a 2000+ day player with no 13 covered 5*s but most champed 4*s is that 4* covers would be great. Make them commensurate with their in game demand. This of course means a review of the rewards system so that the covers can be obtained more easily through effort and play than RNG or freebies. Link it to SHIELD rank and not SCL or generic maybe. 

    But like it or not, the current system balances these well. It is however at the tipping point of insufficient veteran interest. Since they are more motivated to stay than new players having invested either financially or time or both in the game it's a gamble that has worked until now where we are seeing long term players leaving the game. This can only serve to swing the balance in the direction of newer players.

    There's the bones of a post grad thesis in here somewhere... :wink:
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dilution doesn't care if you are a whale or a FTP noob.  It still makes each reward less valuable.

    Getting one cover for 1/80 4's for the noob means you are much less likely to get the cover for the 10 or so 4's you are focused on from a pull.  Your progress will feel much slower.

    For the whale, spreading out the covers so much means it takes a lot more spending/opening to push your roster up into the higher champ levels where your covers are converted into more pulls.  I would argue that entering the game as a whale is a worse idea now than ever before, since your base of 4's is so much wider now and so your rate of return in terms of pulling for 5's is lower.

    To pull all the (13) covers for all 80 4's would mean 1040 covers or 1223 pulls.  I am no whale, but by my records, I have made 3080 Legendary pulls since April 2015. That's 4 years to make enough pulls to get all the 4's up to level 296 on average.  Of course, since I have been playing since then with much less 4's diluting the pull, my highest 4 is Carol at 370 and I have 2 more at 360, 3 in the 350s, 9 in the 340s, and on down.  You get covers from playing and placing, of course, which helps a lot, but even there the rotations suffer from dilution.

    The developers think dilution is a problem. They said so in the recent podcast interview.  I think that should settle the debate about whether action is needed.
  • randomhero1090
    randomhero1090 Posts: 396 Mover and Shaker
    NotBAMF said:
    I'm so thankful I hit my 4* transition in the Vaulted era. I have no earthly idea how they expect new players to ever successfully move into 4* land now.  
    I was a true 3* player prior to saved covers and the other changes.  I moved into the 4* world right at the time of saved covers/LT 4* odds change.

    How does one move into 4* land in this era?  Keeping it short and sweet...  You have to play alot, spend a bit, and have some really great guidance from vets who understand how the transitions work in this game (3-to-4-to-5, MMR, etc).

    What worked for me?  I pulled classics.  I bought most of the deals (to get 4* covers and HP).  I use HP on roster spots.  I played EVERY single event of PVP and PVE.  Always getting full progression.
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    OJSP said:

    Pareto's principle: 80% of the business is coming from 20% of the customers. So, they need to figure out what the paying customers' needs are, regardless of whether they're new or old players (there are newer whales with lvl550s to replace the older ones that have quit). The non-paying players just exist to provide some in-game competition for the paying ones. They need to make these 20% happy and retain these players. Any more effort to make more than 20% happy is inefficient and wasteful.

    Therefore, whatever the decision the developers make, 80% of the players would be unhappy/indifferent.

    Arguably, the more non-paying players leave, the more efficient they can run the game while keeping the paying players happy.

    Totally agree they need to make money, and therefore would be expected to make decisions that will make them money.  But...

    1) Making the paying and non paying players happy is not mutually exclusive.

    2) There are different types of paying players.  You can raise the percentage of paying players and lose money overall, and you are even suggesting moving away from the 20/80 model you started out touting, as a way to  be more efficient, which is too simplistic as well as being a contradiction.

    3) The cover saving addition was a massive boon to non-whales that I would expect had a negative impact on income among that population.  I can only guess that whales get much less benefit from this aside from the convenience.  I could see it reducing their overhead since the customer service department had turned into the cover swap department.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just suppose, another new store(s) pop up with only a number of 4* and 5* selected by the devs that rotates every month. However, this store will cost 40CP to 60CP or 400 to 600HP instead of 20/25cp or 100/200HP. Will players in here be pleased or will they call the devs greedy or desperate?

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