PvP without 5* Thor

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Comments

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,025 Chairperson of the Boards
    LLohm said:
    ABaker84 said:
    Hela will break Thor's hammer .No longer a need to nerf, if there was a need in the first place. Nerf is a naughty word that should be avoided
    Dear ABaker84,

    I think Hela nerfs all other green users far harder than Thor seeing that he gathers green AP for free.

    If anything, Hela breaks Thor the least.
    Nope. All other green users, you just avoid green and chase their other colors. Thor collects green passively meaning you cannot avoid the damage once he’s at half health (which most are bringing him in that way).

    Your turn: Thor has 10 AP
    AI turn: Hela deals damage and destroys 2 AP
    Your turn: Thor passively collects 2 AP bringing him back to 10. 
    AI turn: Hela again deals damage and brings you right under the AP threshold. 

    Yes she hurts other green users; but is obviously meant to hurt Thor teams more. Even the fact that she doesn’t drain much green is by design so she can keep pumping out damage. Will be fun to see in practice. If you’re running Thor, you must target her first. 

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    Your turn: Thor has 10 green AP

    AI turn: Hela drains 2AP and damages Okoye (because cowardly Thor is hiding behind her)

    Your turn: Thor passively generates 30 green AP and 20 yellow AP, cast Okoye yellow to heal her to full, cast Thor green for 80,000 AOE game over.
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Daredevil217 said:
    LLohm said:
    ABaker84 said:
    Hela will break Thor's hammer .No longer a need to nerf, if there was a need in the first place. Nerf is a naughty word that should be avoided
    Dear ABaker84,

    I think Hela nerfs all other green users far harder than Thor seeing that he gathers green AP for free.

    If anything, Hela breaks Thor the least.
    Nope. All other green users, you just avoid green and chase their other colors. Thor collects green passively meaning you cannot avoid the damage once he’s at half health (which most are bringing him in that way).

    Your turn: Thor has 10 AP
    AI turn: Hela deals damage and destroys 2 AP
    Your turn: Thor passively collects 2 AP bringing him back to 10. 
    AI turn: Hela again deals damage and brings you right under the AP threshold. 

    Yes she hurts other green users; but is obviously meant to hurt Thor teams more. Even the fact that she doesn’t drain much green is by design so she can keep pumping out damage. Will be fun to see in practice. If you’re running Thor, you must target her first. 

    Only time will tell, but I don't think she'll be too much trouble for thorkoye teams.  The damage can be dealt with, and Thor's passive will make it harder for Hela to fire her own green power which would be the real fear for me if I'm running Thor.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards

    crackninja said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    LLohm said:
    ABaker84 said:
    Hela will break Thor's hammer .No longer a need to nerf, if there was a need in the first place. Nerf is a naughty word that should be avoided
    Dear ABaker84,

    I think Hela nerfs all other green users far harder than Thor seeing that he gathers green AP for free.

    If anything, Hela breaks Thor the least.
    Nope. All other green users, you just avoid green and chase their other colors. Thor collects green passively meaning you cannot avoid the damage once he’s at half health (which most are bringing him in that way).

    Your turn: Thor has 10 AP
    AI turn: Hela deals damage and destroys 2 AP
    Your turn: Thor passively collects 2 AP bringing him back to 10. 
    AI turn: Hela again deals damage and brings you right under the AP threshold. 

    Yes she hurts other green users; but is obviously meant to hurt Thor teams more. Even the fact that she doesn’t drain much green is by design so she can keep pumping out damage. Will be fun to see in practice. If you’re running Thor, you must target her first. 

    Only time will tell, but I don't think she'll be too much trouble for thorkoye teams.  The damage can be dealt with, and Thor's passive will make it harder for Hela to fire her own green power which would be the real fear for me if I'm running Thor.
    Her green passive will slow down thorkoye noticeably.  Since she destroys 2ap per turn above 10 and he only generates 1.67.  but thorkoye can likely power through that by killing her with red damage.  But her green active is also a problem. For Thor as that rendomized damage will make "hide-a-thor" harder.  And it's different to suppress enemy green while playing hide-a-thor at all, let alone suppressing below 8ap. 

    I would guess that thorkoye will still be plenty good, but it might be slightly less reliable.  And it's a pain if your Thor dies and you have to both heal and then half-kill him again quickly. 
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx said:

    crackninja said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    LLohm said:
    ABaker84 said:
    Hela will break Thor's hammer .No longer a need to nerf, if there was a need in the first place. Nerf is a naughty word that should be avoided
    Dear ABaker84,

    I think Hela nerfs all other green users far harder than Thor seeing that he gathers green AP for free.

    If anything, Hela breaks Thor the least.
    Nope. All other green users, you just avoid green and chase their other colors. Thor collects green passively meaning you cannot avoid the damage once he’s at half health (which most are bringing him in that way).

    Your turn: Thor has 10 AP
    AI turn: Hela deals damage and destroys 2 AP
    Your turn: Thor passively collects 2 AP bringing him back to 10. 
    AI turn: Hela again deals damage and brings you right under the AP threshold. 

    Yes she hurts other green users; but is obviously meant to hurt Thor teams more. Even the fact that she doesn’t drain much green is by design so she can keep pumping out damage. Will be fun to see in practice. If you’re running Thor, you must target her first. 

    Only time will tell, but I don't think she'll be too much trouble for thorkoye teams.  The damage can be dealt with, and Thor's passive will make it harder for Hela to fire her own green power which would be the real fear for me if I'm running Thor.
    Her green passive will slow down thorkoye noticeably.  Since she destroys 2ap per turn above 10 and he only generates 1.67.  but thorkoye can likely power through that by killing her with red damage.  But her green active is also a problem. For Thor as that rendomized damage will make "hide-a-thor" harder.  And it's different to suppress enemy green while playing hide-a-thor at all, let alone suppressing below 8ap. 

    I would guess that thorkoye will still be plenty good, but it might be slightly less reliable.  And it's a pain if your Thor dies and you have to both heal and then half-kill him again quickly. 
    It'll be annoying for sure, just not sure if it will be any more dangerous than facing a team with an aoe or stun.  My guess is I'll target her first, down her with red, and the next turn end the match by firing Thor's green.
  • marshall
    marshall Posts: 179 Tile Toppler
    Guess we'll have to see it in practice if she damages Thor or Okoye. If they designed her right, she should damage Thor, as soon as he collects not just on her turn.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    What I would want is a better defense team against Thor. I don't think Hela will do that for me, he does seem to collect too quickly. She's probably fine on offense against him. I think she is probably going to neuter my gho5t Rider though.
  • Tiggida
    Tiggida Posts: 64 Match Maker
    imo characters only need nerfs when they are too strong when used by the ai. That basically shows that the character(s) can be played mindlessly and with no skill whatsoever. If anyone needs a nerf right now it’s 4* rocket. Having thor Oko as a meta team is completely fine by me, because you can beat them with a lot of combinations of teams which allows me to use more of my roster if I want to. Gritty forces us to use specific teams and they are almost unbeatable unless you have the right characters. 
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,942 Chairperson of the Boards
    So now I'm trying to remember if there is a character in the game that has anything like a mechanic where you would need to match with them to leave them out front, and then something happens.  We have "jump in front" on a number of defensive characters.  Anyone that does something like Thor is proposed to do?

    Part of the reason I'm asking is because the tech doesn't always exist to accomplish the ideas that we/devs come up with.  I'm not saying it is impossible....just thinking about it.

    Another thought I'm having is that there are a LOT of high end players that spent money/resources to ensure that Okoye tanks red over Thor.  And this would be quite an issue for some people to suddenly change his design this way.  But such is the way of nerfs.  Anyway, it would be frustrating to suddenly find that having a bigger Thor is better when people have been making dupe Thors, tossing Valk/Thor covers, etc.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    So now I'm trying to remember if there is a character in the game that has anything like a mechanic where you would need to match with them to leave them out front, and then something happens.  We have "jump in front" on a number of defensive characters.  Anyone that does something like Thor is proposed to do?

    Part of the reason I'm asking is because the tech doesn't always exist to accomplish the ideas that we/devs come up with.  I'm not saying it is impossible....just thinking about it.
    Colossus has the conditional team damage on his red if he’s in front and he’s a very old character in game terms.  They must have the ability to check whether someone is in front before activating an ability.  ...and Colossus’ red isn’t his ability which routinely breaks the game, so presumably they could use something like it :)
  • jackstar0
    jackstar0 Posts: 1,280 Chairperson of the Boards
    Grocket "nerf" could look like this:
    He generates 2 Strikes for each GotG member on the force at the start of the match.
    For each GotG member their strength is increased by X.

    If you want to Gritty, you gotta be saddled with another GotG (so no Bishop, or whatever).

    I do not want this to happen because I think Gritty is a great thing for the game (being NOT Thorkoye and still being viable).
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,942 Chairperson of the Boards
    ZootSax said:
    bluewolf said:
    So now I'm trying to remember if there is a character in the game that has anything like a mechanic where you would need to match with them to leave them out front, and then something happens.  We have "jump in front" on a number of defensive characters.  Anyone that does something like Thor is proposed to do?

    Part of the reason I'm asking is because the tech doesn't always exist to accomplish the ideas that we/devs come up with.  I'm not saying it is impossible....just thinking about it.
    Colossus has the conditional team damage on his red if he’s in front and he’s a very old character in game terms.  They must have the ability to check whether someone is in front before activating an ability.  ...and Colossus’ red isn’t his ability which routinely breaks the game, so presumably they could use something like it :)
    This is true, and I forgot about this part.  I assume you've already started playing the Colossus PVP.   ;)

    Presumably whether an ability is passive or not wouldn't cause an issue with the "check for this, then that" condition.  But that's easy for me to say....
  • LLohm
    LLohm Posts: 84 Match Maker
    It could also function like Thanos’ Come Get Me. The moment Thor reaches 50% life, he auto tanks everything.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    bluewolf said:
    So now I'm trying to remember if there is a character in the game that has anything like a mechanic where you would need to match with them to leave them out front, and then something happens.  We have "jump in front" on a number of defensive characters.  Anyone that does something like Thor is proposed to do?

    Part of the reason I'm asking is because the tech doesn't always exist to accomplish the ideas that we/devs come up with.  I'm not saying it is impossible....just thinking about it.

    Another thought I'm having is that there are a LOT of high end players that spent money/resources to ensure that Okoye tanks red over Thor.  And this would be quite an issue for some people to suddenly change his design this way.  But such is the way of nerfs.  Anyway, it would be frustrating to suddenly find that having a bigger Thor is better when people have been making dupe Thors, tossing Valk/Thor covers, etc.
    Elektra needs to take damage for her black traps to trigger. It can be an AoE (regular or random) but most often she just has to make the match and be in front next turn. If that's hard to accomplish, she really loses a lot of her utility.  No idea if game "knows" how to check who is in front? I'd like to think that's not so hard though? 
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Thing is, if thor has to be in front for his passive to work (which is a cool solution btw), then now he kind of stinks unless you also take away the half-health element.  He would be going down constantly and would require more effort than it would be worth to get him back down to half health.  And if you remove the half health element, then he would be a nightmare to face so let's just pretend I never mentioned it.
    Not only that, but his synergy with okoye would be destroyed because him being in front reduces the team up count by 1 each turn.
    If it's just thor's time to join gambit and oml, so be it, but I just want us to recognize ahead of time that that's what we'll get.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    crackninja said:
    Thing is, if thor has to be in front for his passive to work (which is a cool solution btw), then now he kind of stinks unless you also take away the half-health element.  He would be going down constantly and would require more effort than it would be worth to get him back down to half health.  And if you remove the half health element, then he would be a nightmare to face so let's just pretend I never mentioned it.
    Not only that, but his synergy with okoye would be destroyed because him being in front reduces the team up count by 1 each turn.
    If it's just thor's time to join gambit and oml, so be it, but I just want us to recognize ahead of time that that's what we'll get.
    He does have a third power on yellow that can protect him from match damage after a while. He'd probably take some damage before he got the yellow AP and the repeater (and protect tiles!) survived a few turns, sure... That just means no climbing from 0 to where ever without any health packs. Kinda like it was before Thor and Gambit, I imagine? Then again, there's Doom now who can tank yellow for him from the start. And Ock can fake heal piecemeal for cheap after the rework, though his repeater can also be pretty unreliable at times.

    Also, if the "has to be in front" was the only thing they changed on Thor, I don't think he'd end up joining Gambit let alone OML in level of nerf. Not even close. But I doubt we'll ever see, anyway, so... :)
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Kolence said:
    crackninja said:
    Thing is, if thor has to be in front for his passive to work (which is a cool solution btw), then now he kind of stinks unless you also take away the half-health element.  He would be going down constantly and would require more effort than it would be worth to get him back down to half health.  And if you remove the half health element, then he would be a nightmare to face so let's just pretend I never mentioned it.
    Not only that, but his synergy with okoye would be destroyed because him being in front reduces the team up count by 1 each turn.
    If it's just thor's time to join gambit and oml, so be it, but I just want us to recognize ahead of time that that's what we'll get.
    He does have a third power on yellow that can protect him from match damage after a while. He'd probably take some damage before he got the yellow AP and the repeater (and protect tiles!) survived a few turns, sure... That just means no climbing from 0 to where ever without any health packs. Kinda like it was before Thor and Gambit, I imagine? Then again, there's Doom now who can tank yellow for him from the start. And Ock can fake heal piecemeal for cheap after the rework, though his repeater can also be pretty unreliable at times.

    Also, if the "has to be in front" was the only thing they changed on Thor, I don't think he'd end up joining Gambit let alone OML in level of nerf. Not even close. But I doubt we'll ever see, anyway, so... :)
    I agree that his yellow would become the key, though again that would take away more than 1 of okoye's heals, so maybe jj takes over as his top partner.
    I wonder, do many people currently use thor now when he isn't at half health?  I know that retreating to knock him down is common practice.
    I don't retreat, I start a pvp match and try to leave him out front.  My experience is that by the time he is down to half health, the other team will be about ready to start firing powers that then risk serious to fatal damage.  Maybe a creative new combo would appear that would make him more durable, but my expectation is I wouldn't be able to win more than 2 matches without needing a healthpack, and I'm not confident it would be more than 1 most of the time unless it proves reliable to be able to get his yellow out and effective in time to protect him.
    I can do better than that now with gambit and an unchamped black bolt.
    As you said, we'll likely never know.  His green passive turning into a repeater seems more likely.

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