PvP without 5* Thor

245

Comments

  • Painmonger
    Painmonger Posts: 163 Tile Toppler
    PiMacleod said:
    Heres my 2 cents

    When people play against Gritty... they usually bring BSSM.  Maybe medusa...  some way to reduce the damage, and deal with the tiles.  We all know about Bishop and his stun against those high damage rates.

    When people play against Thorkoye... they dont bring anyone special.  They just bring whoever and target the appropriate threats.  Theres not a single character you immediately think of as a "solution".  You just have to try to win fast against the characters in the right order.

    At least against Gritty teams, theres a sense of counter-picking characters.  If you can counter pick, and disable someone's special like that, then it's not nearly as bad as the team where you dont have a counter pick.

    I would agree with the nerf Thor argument for this purpose.
    I don't follow your line of thinking here. Gritty is pretty rough to go up against unless you have 1 niche character to counter them (BSSM). I'm not counting Bishop since he's got the same level of effectiveness against either pair. Thorkoye can be beat by just about anyone without needing a very specific power. I'm not sure how you can make both of those statements a justification for nerfing Thor.

    I have both teams, they can clear pve pretty equally well in my experience, so I think we can limit this to PvP as a lens. Since my BSSM is poorly covered, if I see a 450 Thorkoye team in one node & a 450/270 gritty team in another, I will take on that thorkoye team every day of the week. Gritty is the only PvP team I just skip. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes I can't, but it's just too unreliable for me to risk points on.

    The easiest solution to both of those teams I can see is introduce a mechanic like Flames of the Faltine except it triggers on passive powers instead of active. There could be versions to do damage, stun, create specials, destroy or steal specials, destroy or steal AP etc. You could shake up the entire passive power meta pretty easily without a hard nerf to anyone or a niche counter that only comes into play against one team/character.
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 587 Critical Contributor
    Daredevil217 said:
    Thor PVP was brutal. Thor is my most reliable Gritty counter. Without him it was a huge healthpack suck limiting when I could play. I would probably not play PVP nearly as much if Thor was nerfed.

    Luckily I don’t see any of the meta getting nerfed as they were just offered in a hoard-breaking special store.

    My guess is they will look to create a 4* hard counter to Rocket (passive strike steal, passive strike destruction, or passive board blow up), and a 5* deterrent to playing Thor (passive AOE damage like 4* marvel, or something like Jessica’s traps only they go off on the players turn, punishing Thor for cascading into dangerous matches). 

    Counters are preferable to nerfs. Also makes great business sense. Sell us the poison and the antidote!
    Okoye/Kraven was the antidote, Okoye/XFDP also worked perfectly well.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Painmonger said:
    PiMacleod said:
    Heres my 2 cents

    When people play against Gritty... they usually bring BSSM.  Maybe medusa...  some way to reduce the damage, and deal with the tiles.  We all know about Bishop and his stun against those high damage rates.

    When people play against Thorkoye... they dont bring anyone special.  They just bring whoever and target the appropriate threats.  Theres not a single character you immediately think of as a "solution".  You just have to try to win fast against the characters in the right order.

    At least against Gritty teams, theres a sense of counter-picking characters.  If you can counter pick, and disable someone's special like that, then it's not nearly as bad as the team where you dont have a counter pick.

    I would agree with the nerf Thor argument for this purpose.
    I don't follow your line of thinking here. Gritty is pretty rough to go up against unless you have 1 niche character to counter them (BSSM). I'm not counting Bishop since he's got the same level of effectiveness against either pair. Thorkoye can be beat by just about anyone without needing a very specific power. I'm not sure how you can make both of those statements a justification for nerfing Thor.

    I have both teams, they can clear pve pretty equally well in my experience, so I think we can limit this to PvP as a lens. Since my BSSM is poorly covered, if I see a 450 Thorkoye team in one node & a 450/270 gritty team in another, I will take on that thorkoye team every day of the week. Gritty is the only PvP team I just skip. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes I can't, but it's just too unreliable for me to risk points on.

    The easiest solution to both of those teams I can see is introduce a mechanic like Flames of the Faltine except it triggers on passive powers instead of active. There could be versions to do damage, stun, create specials, destroy or steal specials, destroy or steal AP etc. You could shake up the entire passive power meta pretty easily without a hard nerf to anyone or a niche counter that only comes into play against one team/character.
    I like the idea of a counter to passives.  But would that power itself be passive? What would happen in mirror matches?
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,758 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares said:
    Vhailorx said:
    I don't want Thor nerfed. I want more, equally good meta characters. Thor makes matches fast and reliable.

    Mpq asks me to play and win a TON of matches every day.  Until Demi changes that, i don't want a slower meta.

    Besides, Thorkoye is the ideal meta team in that they aren't brutally difficult to fight against.  Original gambit, and gritty were/are dominant in both offense and defense (unless you have BSSM against gritty).  That is when the meta becomes oppressive; there is no way to progress post a certain point without already having the meta team.
    This, just this. 

    Stop the nerfs. Buff the latest 5s ASAP so they become viable and desirable! Give more options!
    Here is the simple fix for Marvel.  Her green passive drop the repeater to 2 and let her place it at the start of the battle like gambits.  For her red drop her repeater to 1 and fortify it.  Boom new meta 5* but not unbeatable.  Red too powerful ok fortify it keep it at 2 but allow 2 strike tiles to go on the board right away.

    king pin-make his attack tiles 4X strongerand drop his repeater down to 1.  His blue just always do damage no conditions.  

    Doom dump his yellow active burts healing and give him a direct damage ability.  Boom 3 new quality 5* useable in PVP.
  • Painmonger
    Painmonger Posts: 163 Tile Toppler
    Vhailorx said:
    Painmonger said:
    PiMacleod said:
    Heres my 2 cents

    When people play against Gritty... they usually bring BSSM.  Maybe medusa...  some way to reduce the damage, and deal with the tiles.  We all know about Bishop and his stun against those high damage rates.

    When people play against Thorkoye... they dont bring anyone special.  They just bring whoever and target the appropriate threats.  Theres not a single character you immediately think of as a "solution".  You just have to try to win fast against the characters in the right order.

    At least against Gritty teams, theres a sense of counter-picking characters.  If you can counter pick, and disable someone's special like that, then it's not nearly as bad as the team where you dont have a counter pick.

    I would agree with the nerf Thor argument for this purpose.
    I don't follow your line of thinking here. Gritty is pretty rough to go up against unless you have 1 niche character to counter them (BSSM). I'm not counting Bishop since he's got the same level of effectiveness against either pair. Thorkoye can be beat by just about anyone without needing a very specific power. I'm not sure how you can make both of those statements a justification for nerfing Thor.

    I have both teams, they can clear pve pretty equally well in my experience, so I think we can limit this to PvP as a lens. Since my BSSM is poorly covered, if I see a 450 Thorkoye team in one node & a 450/270 gritty team in another, I will take on that thorkoye team every day of the week. Gritty is the only PvP team I just skip. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes I can't, but it's just too unreliable for me to risk points on.

    The easiest solution to both of those teams I can see is introduce a mechanic like Flames of the Faltine except it triggers on passive powers instead of active. There could be versions to do damage, stun, create specials, destroy or steal specials, destroy or steal AP etc. You could shake up the entire passive power meta pretty easily without a hard nerf to anyone or a niche counter that only comes into play against one team/character.
    I like the idea of a counter to passives.  But would that power itself be passive? What would happen in mirror matches?
    In my head it's a passive & only triggers once per power per turn, but could be every passive & make it a CD instead. As long as the CD is on the board, the power gets triggered off a passive activating. I should probably post it in suggestions to keep from hijacking the thread any more.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Painmonger said:
    Vhailorx said:
    Painmonger said:
    PiMacleod said:
    Heres my 2 cents

    When people play against Gritty... they usually bring BSSM.  Maybe medusa...  some way to reduce the damage, and deal with the tiles.  We all know about Bishop and his stun against those high damage rates.

    When people play against Thorkoye... they dont bring anyone special.  They just bring whoever and target the appropriate threats.  Theres not a single character you immediately think of as a "solution".  You just have to try to win fast against the characters in the right order.

    At least against Gritty teams, theres a sense of counter-picking characters.  If you can counter pick, and disable someone's special like that, then it's not nearly as bad as the team where you dont have a counter pick.

    I would agree with the nerf Thor argument for this purpose.
    I don't follow your line of thinking here. Gritty is pretty rough to go up against unless you have 1 niche character to counter them (BSSM). I'm not counting Bishop since he's got the same level of effectiveness against either pair. Thorkoye can be beat by just about anyone without needing a very specific power. I'm not sure how you can make both of those statements a justification for nerfing Thor.

    I have both teams, they can clear pve pretty equally well in my experience, so I think we can limit this to PvP as a lens. Since my BSSM is poorly covered, if I see a 450 Thorkoye team in one node & a 450/270 gritty team in another, I will take on that thorkoye team every day of the week. Gritty is the only PvP team I just skip. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes I can't, but it's just too unreliable for me to risk points on.

    The easiest solution to both of those teams I can see is introduce a mechanic like Flames of the Faltine except it triggers on passive powers instead of active. There could be versions to do damage, stun, create specials, destroy or steal specials, destroy or steal AP etc. You could shake up the entire passive power meta pretty easily without a hard nerf to anyone or a niche counter that only comes into play against one team/character.
    I like the idea of a counter to passives.  But would that power itself be passive? What would happen in mirror matches?
    In my head it's a passive & only triggers once per power per turn, but could be every passive & make it a CD instead. As long as the CD is on the board, the power gets triggered off a passive activating. I should probably post it in suggestions to keep from hijacking the thread any more.
    Fair enough, but any active power will not counter meta teams like gritty (cf archangel and lumbercap to counter Gambit).  When one side is a passive that starts immediately and the counter move is an active power and therefore board dependent, the counter is generally ineffective as compared to just running a standard strat to do as much damage possible asap.

    I think the problem is that Demi and the players have different ideas about ideal match length.  Players always, always gravitate to the fastest teams (for extrinsic reasons like scoring and placement and shieldng).  Demi seems to want longer matches, and keeps on doing things like emphasizing CDs and repeaters while slowly creeping up and up with health.  But every once in a while, they makeba mistake or something and give us reliable 7-10 turn (give or take) teams (e.g. gritty, thorkoye, old Gambit, panthos, oml/Phoenix, fistbuster, thorverine, sentry/hood, etc), and we start using only those fast teams because we are always pressed to play dozens of matches each day.  Once they do that Demi has to decide to nerf the outliers or buff everyone else.  To date they have always nerfed the outliers.

    Mildly curious to see what they do this time around.  After Gambit and oml, people have to know that nerfs can happen.  But repeatedly beating down the best options is a recipe for player disgruntlement.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,770 Chairperson of the Boards
    So, lemme get this straight, you dont understand how someone could see a team that has a counter is preferable to a team that doesn't have a counter?  

    Oh, I get that you can go in and just smash Thorkoye.  I get that Gritty is hard to fight.  But people are talking about having counters to problems instead of nerfing.  BSSM is a viable counter.  Thorkoye doesnt have that.  You have, as earlier posters stated, a 5 AP per turn generation kit with no drawback due to his buddy Okoye tanking for him.  Because, as other posters stated as well, who plays thor at full health?

    So theres the line of thought.  If you want hard counters, and Gritty has one, then Gritty isnt a problem.  Thorkoye has no hard counter, except to bring your own meta team.

    The "lens" (as it was stated) was expanded to PvE as well because, as it was stated by earlier posters (I tend to read a decent amount here and there), people wouldnt want a Thor nerf because it would make PvE a slog.  So change PvE to something people desire, instead of a mindless grind.... then the supposed 5*thor nerf wouldnt hit so hard.  

    I for one loved the idea that he couldn't generate the AP if he wasnt in front.   That's a solid fix. 

    But I'm also of the opinion that 4*Rocket could use an appropriate tweak as well.  I think his passive is a neat idea, but what makes everyone use him is the fact that you START with 7 strike tiles.  I propose that you make him like a strike-tile version of Medusa's Entanglement.  A countdown tile that adds damage to your matches and abilities while it exists on the board.  If it gets destroyed by anything, Rocket "comes up with new weaponry" hence creating 2 strike tiles of value X (+Y for each GotG member on the team).  This way, he doesnt start the game with 7 strike tiles.  He still buffs the teams offense from the get go.  Kitty cant buff what isnt there.  And of course, it only works if the damage buff applied by the countdown is decent, but not as decent as 7 tiles on the board.  That way,  the ability has room to get better than what the passive is now, but not start at the same strength all wrapped up in one tile. 

    Anyways, I still think things need changing.  Theres no reason to have players hanging out clicking your buttons for hour(s) of grinding (its not like they have ads playing anymore).  Give people the quicker PvE by requiring 1 node clears.  This allows speed-character nerfing, so that PvP can be a little more thoughtful, and not ruining PvE experience/speed meta.

    But who are we kidding by saying this... the power creep will continue.  Characters will be outclassed eventually.  And this discusion will be something funny to look back on when our characters are doing 10k damage on first turn matches.  :)
  • Kishida
    Kishida Posts: 310 Mover and Shaker
    PiMacleod said:

    Because, as other posters stated as well, who plays thor at full health?

    Um, your computer-controlled PvP opponent?
  • LLohm
    LLohm Posts: 84 Match Maker
    Another simple thing would be to simply do a Gambit. Thor’s colors cannot be used by anybody else while he’s alive.

    This will limit the usefulness of his free AP and make this better.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,770 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lystrata said:
    PiMacleod said:
    You have, as earlier posters stated, a 5 AP per turn generation kit with no drawback due to his buddy Okoye tanking for him.  Because, as other posters stated as well, who plays thor at full health?

    So theres the line of thought.  If you want hard counters, and Gritty has one, then Gritty isnt a problem.  Thorkoye has no hard counter, except to bring your own meta team.
    These are two different points, though.

    The 5 AP generation per turn is only when you're playing 5Thor.

    However, if you want to know who plays Thor at full health - the AI does. So his ap gen doesn't even have to come into affect if you play against him properly. When playing against 5Thor, you don't need a 'hard counter' beyond being able to do basic maths. Sure, sometimes you might get unlucky with a cascade taking the opposing Thor below X health, but for the most part... you don't need a meta team to deal with him. 

    I would fight Thor/Okoye over Gritty every single time, because I can use a very easy strategy against them, vs. relying on the chance of being able to match randomly placed strike tiles and hoping for the best. 

    That's the great thing about T/O. They're fast, efficient, and very, very easy to fight against. We shouldn't be looking to remove that combination from the game - we should be demanding more teams that can have such great synergy.
    That was well said.  I do like how you put it.

    ...so you're all-for a character that gives 5 free AP a turn, along with potential cascading damage and more AP?

    It's hard for me to see the balance in that.  If you want AP, there should be a cost.  Having half health isnt a cost... that's just a thing that's bound to happen as you play more and more.  It's like erosion... its inevitable.

    But there are characters that give AP... Vulture.  3* IM.  Even 5* gambit, although much slower.  Theres a cost... black ap, yellow ap, or just time/countdown tile.  To just have it pour in like that, doesnt that sound just a little like one of the best powers ever?

    I guess this is why everyone is really disappointed with all the newer 5*s....  they expect more of this.  It's like if you put a star value on the skills themselves - theres a lot of 4 and 5 star skills.  AP generation skills are generally 4 or 5 stars.  Big nukes, usually 4 stars.  AP cost, countdowns, repeaters, etc are factors that can drive that value down (Fatpin's blue requires a tile to give, and an enemy AP condition as well, just to fire and get that damage, so it doesnt value high).  But here with Thor, you have a no-effort, 5 AP generating, damage dealing, cascade causing effect, that only requires that you play the game enough so that you've lost half health.  That sounds like its probably more like a 6 star ability!

    If you think that sounds balanced, then you will never find newer abilities quite as thrilling, until they make a new 5* skill/character on this level.  Kitty comes close, but her passive actually requires character synergy (rocket's passive) in order to work from first turn possible.  Thor does not... he just prefers Okoye as a partner, and vice-versa.  He can still do his thing with or without her. 

    And thats why I see no problem with her.  Her abilities are great... it's what rocket brings to the table that she goes berserk with.  

    Oh, and btw, I really do appreciate how you put it @Lystrata.  Was not being sarcastic in the least.  I like to support something if it's well stated and not offensive.  :)
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2019
    PiMacLeod:

    I don't white get what you are saying about "counters.". Or rather I can see two equally plausible alternative interpretations.

    "Counter" might mean any effective team or strategy to use against a given opponent. Using this definition, there are many more counters for thorkoye than for gritty, since a much wider range of teams can reliably beat thorkoye.

    Alternately, you could mean "counter" as the only effective means of defeating a particular oponnent that is otherwise quite challenging/impossible.  In which case gritty uas only a very few true counters (and thorkoye sort of has none in that there aren't many esepcually effective strats ti use against them). This is the traditional rock/paper/scissors design, where almost all strategies are very strong except against specific counter moves (e.g. rock always wins or draws, unless you come up against paper).  Rock/paper/scissors is a great design philosophy, but I see at least two major problems with relying on it in mpq.

    (1) this design usually relies in some uncertainty (e.g. deck building, or simultaneously revealing strategies) or coordination (e.g. effective play requires the use of more strats than a single player can do alone, think MMO raid bosses that need dps + healing + tanking).  In mpq, everything is 100% certain and everyone plays solo at basically all times.  With a very very few exceptions, you always know friendly and opposing team composition before the match starts. Imagine playing RPS when you always know in adcance what your opponent will choose.

    (2) in order to work well, everyone has to have roughly equal access to rocks, paper and scissors.  Imagine playing RPS in a world where the only way to get paper was to have been playing at a very high level 3+ years ago, or to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars today. 

    This why a gritty-only meta would be much worse than what we have now.

    As for Thor's passive AP gen, it is strong. Especially when Demi seems to want longer/slower matches. I have always felt like the best solution was to give him a built-in limiter, like DD.  If Thor healed himself passively as he generates ap, then you would have to let him tank to keep the AP flowing, and that would expose him to risk.  You could even make the healing burst healing if you were really worried about too many true healers in the game (which Demi seems to care about sometimes).
    By the way, this idea was proposed on the forums (by someone else) in 2017, so it's not like Demi hasn't had an opportunity to think about this sort of change.
  • elvy75
    elvy75 Posts: 225 Tile Toppler
    The rockett said:
    If you go after Thor then you will make a 5* and 4* team a meta team.  AI Kitty is broken as well with buffing strike tiles before move 1.  Let’s not just make this a Thor nerf thread.  
    I disagree she is broken, the problem is that grocket is creating too many strikes, and thus she can buff tiles from turn 1. When she isn't coupled with grocket, she is quite mediocre 5*. 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    elvy75 said:
    The rockett said:
    If you go after Thor then you will make a 5* and 4* team a meta team.  AI Kitty is broken as well with buffing strike tiles before move 1.  Let’s not just make this a Thor nerf thread.  
    I disagree she is broken, the problem is that grocket is creating too many strikes, and thus she can buff tiles from turn 1. When she isn't coupled with grocket, she is quite mediocre 5*. 
    And the fact that she has to drag around Rocket and his 10k HP or whatever makes her a cupcake for Thanos teams...Rocket dies in like 2 moves, then it's court death game over.  It's a 30 second match with average board luck.
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,203 Chairperson of the Boards
    The only Nerf i can fathom ( buffing old chars is always best for counter play) is when Thor's health is below 50%, the board destruction still happens, but no longer generates AP off of destroyed tiles. 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    I should necro the old thread where I got *pilloried* for daring to suggest some of this stuff.  (To be fair, it was like right after Gambit and people were still touchy)  I guess it's cool that the game seems to have come around to the idea that Thor generating 100 free AP every turn might be a little overpowered. 

    As for nerf vs counter I don't think there's ever going to be a reasonable counter to this that's not also overpowered.  Like, what's an actual Thor counter look like?  "Passively reduce the enemy team's green/red/yellow by 5 each turn?"

    There's a bunch of ways to fix him that nerf the problematic "unlimited free AP" aspect, but what they'll probably do is have him create a 3-turn repeater that generates 1 green/red/yellow AP when he's below 50% health.
  • Cactus_Jack_87
    Cactus_Jack_87 Posts: 210 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2019
    @entrailbucket I already suck bad enough at this game, please don't let them take away the only thing that gives me a fighting chance. If you don't repent of this nerf Thor business, I am going to come to S2 and drop every whale that I have on you. #buffThorbit #buffThokoye #buffThorbolt #buffThordevil #buffThorjess #buffThordey #buffThorkit #buffThornos #buffThorble #buffThorsp #buffThorsk #buffThorki #buffThorngel #buffThorider #buffThormurica #buffThorhawk #buffThordoom #buffThorfer #buffThornix #buffThordow #buffThorhulk #buffThorXLVI #buffThorML #buffThortopus #buffThor-Lord #buffThornorm #buffThorvers
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    entrailbucket said:
    [...]
    There's a bunch of ways to fix him that nerf the problematic "unlimited free AP" aspect, but what they'll probably do is have him create a 3-turn repeater that generates 1 green/red/yellow AP when he's below 50% health.
    Sadly, this. It would probably be a lame super slow repeater tile that takes ages to do anything (because that's been the trend for a while now) and it would almost certainly suck. A lot.
    I know I'm jumping off a post in favour of balancing him, but people stop trying to ask for tiny soft gentle balance nerfs. The game doesn't have a good history with tiny soft gentle balance nerfs. If a character gets nerfed, they generally get nerfed pretty hard. Only ask for nerfs for characters that are such major problems that you're prepared to see them nerfed into the ground, because that's probably what will happen.
    The question isn't "can we balance Thor's AP generation better by adding a small tweak", the question is "is his AP generation a big enough problem that you're prepared to see him nerf-stomped for it?".
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:

    Mildly curious to see what they do this time around.  After Gambit and oml, people have to know that nerfs can happen.  But repeatedly beating down the best options is a recipe for player disgruntlement.
    OML didn't deserve the nerf, this is one of the reasons why now he is useless in almost any team (he was way more useful to 4 or 3 players than to 5 players). Gambit on the other hand is probably one of the most justified nerfs in this game (together probably with the old 3 Ragnarok and the Sentry), so those are very different cases. Sadly this means that as long as a char is used all the time, he might get a nerf, not because he was broken, but because he was used too much. Which might save Thor as he is used just in PvP and just by 5 players.

    For me, the only char that right now gets close to deserve a nerf and I would understand it is Rocket. It was a really BAD idea to have someone place so many strikes at the beginning of the match. It was also a really bad idea to release a 5 that buffs special tiles passively. But Kitty is fine, if Rocket would not exist she would be perfectly fine.So I would understand if Rocket would be reworked (And not everybody has BSSM to counter him, specially when he is a 4 character).

    Another BIG problem we have in this game is that Devs don't know how to nerf chars, I would say all chars nerfed, expect 3 Magneto, became useless after the nerf, like completely useless. I still remember how some people were saying Gambit was not nerfed enough... Look at him now, useless, no one use him anymore for nothing. He is just dead weight. Devs tend to nerf the 3 abilities at the same time, instead of doing an incremental/decremental process, and this usually gets us to these awful results.

    So, who knows what will happen, but I really hope they start buffing chars ASAP, instead than nerfing. 

    Whatever happens, I think we deserve a communication regarding the latest releases and what Devs expect from the new releases going forward. And we need it ASAP.

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