Summon vs Cast -- Objective Inconsistencies -- Master Thread *Updated (4/1/19)

bken1234bken1234 GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 2,482 Chairperson of the Boards
Hello!

In an effort to help the devs better identify objective inconsistencies we will be combining all threads into master threads by objective. Please ensure you are adding your future posts to these threads. 

White node ToA 

Thanks!
bken1234

[Brigby] Update: The team has been working hard testing and making sure that Summon and Cast behaviors are consistent throughout various cards and objectives. While they have already fixed a large portion of these issues, there are a few that may still exhibit inconsistent behavior, however they are anticipated to be fixed in the upcoming 3.4 update

You can find a list of them below:
  • [Cards] - Inconsistent Cast Behavior
    • Arguel's Blood Fast
    • Azor's Gateway
    • Conqueror's Galleon
    • Golden Guardian
    • Growing Rites of Itlimoc
    • Hadana's Climb
    • Journey to Eternity
    • Path of Mettle
    • Profane Procession
    • Search for Azcanta
    • Storm the Vault
  • [Cards] - Inconsistent Summon Behavior
    • Baffling End
    • Dowsing Dagger
    • Imprisoned in the Moon
    • Incongruity
    • Turn to Frog
  • [Events] - Inconsistent Cast Behavior
    • General - Archmage Objective
    • General - Magician Objective
    • Return of the God-Pharaoh - Veteran Objective
    • Emergency Ordinances - Aggressive Objective
    • Fate is Rarely Fair - Gadgeteer Objective
  • [Events] - Inconsistent Summon Behavior
    • Trial of Zeal - Burst Objective
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Comments

  • jtwoodjtwood Posts: 309 Mover and Shaker
    On the white node of ToA, the requirement is "summon" embalm creatures. I summoned two Honored Hydras via Vivien's Invocation and hard cast the other one. The hard cast Hydra was the only one that counted towards the objective.

    (NOTE: Attacking with a 24/24 regular Hydra that is not buffed - so it's 3x the Hydra)


    Talking to others, it sounds like we are seeing this issue throughout ToA
  • AmosBurtonAmosBurton Posts: 1 Just Dropped In
    I don't have any screenshots to back it up, but I can say that Deploy the Gatewatch, tokens, and Liliana 3's 1st and 2nd abilities do not count toward "summon" objectives in this TOA
  • ShaarkBiiteShaarkBiite Posts: 35 Just Dropped In
    edited February 11
    Same story here. From Under the Floorboards' zombies didn't count. Nor did Prized Amalgam when it revived itself from the graveyard.

    We finally had terms defined by the dev, guess it missed the QC step. 
  • DkroneDkrone Posts: 30 Just Dropped In
    I use Vivian’s Invocation in several decks and it’s never counted as a summons for me in any event, unlike Chord of Calling which does count. VI’s text says move a card to the battlefield, I don’t think it counts as a summon unless the card goes through your hand. Liliana’s ability is also a “move to the battlefield” ability.
  • BrakkisBrakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    Dkrone said:
    I use Vivian’s Invocation in several decks and it’s never counted as a summons for me in any event, unlike Chord of Calling which does count. VI’s text says move a card to the battlefield, I don’t think it counts as a summon unless the card goes through your hand. Liliana’s ability is also a “move to the battlefield” ability.

    That is the crux of the problem in the saga of "Summon vs Cast" and why Oktagon needs to fix things, be it the text being accurate or implementing the correct summon vs cast parameters. Here's how each is supposed to function.

    Summon - Any method that puts a creature in the field of play; whether it's fetched, pulled from the GY, spawned through another creature, created as a PW ability, bounced and returned, or cast directly from your hand. (The only exception is stolen from the other side. You didn't summon it.)

    Cast - Cast directly from your hand by filling its mana.
  • jtwoodjtwood Posts: 309 Mover and Shaker
    @Dkrone Please note the recent guidance we received on Cast vs Summons:


    Summon: A card is summoned if it is placed on the battlefield from anywhere, including the cards that return from the library or cemetery
    Cast: A card is cast if it's played from your hand.


  • DkroneDkrone Posts: 30 Just Dropped In
    Oh haha...well they need to fix that  :# 
  • ArielSiraArielSira Posts: 273 Mover and Shaker
    This is an older event from Hibernum days. I just stick to what I knew worked before with those events and don't assume they changed them to follow Oktagons cast/summon rules.

    They should* correct it of course, but not holding my breath here.
  • LaeuftbeidirLaeuftbeidir Posts: 1,830 Chairperson of the Boards
    ArielSira said:
    This is an older event from Hibernum days. I just stick to what I knew worked before with those events and don't assume they changed them to follow Oktagons cast/summon rules.

    They should* correct it of course, but not holding my breath here.
    In that case, the left node should not count tokens.. Which it does..
  • ArielSiraArielSira Posts: 273 Mover and Shaker
    Did it count them before? I don't know what the exact rules were with Hibernum. All I understand is that even though Oktagon made the rules on cast/summon clear, I don't expect the events to be fully adapted to those rules. Not their own events but certainly not the older ones.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 724 Critical Contributor
    edited February 12
    @ArielSira - I wonder if you are a veteran player, since you obviously know about the history of this app and testing. :D  

    yes, I used the T-word which apparently refers to a dangerous activity, since it is rarely performed.
  • ShaarkBiiteShaarkBiite Posts: 35 Just Dropped In
    ArielSira said:
    Did it count them before? I don't know what the exact rules were with Hibernum. All I understand is that even though Oktagon made the rules on cast/summon clear, I don't expect the events to be fully adapted to those rules. Not their own events but certainly not the older ones.
    I'm sorry, but why should players need to know when an event was developed/introduced in order to know which rules apply to it? In my opinion, new players shouldn't even know that there were multiple developers for the game. 

    As @Brakkis and @jtwood both noted, we were just given definitions to both cast and summon.

    And as @Laeuftbeidir noted, two nodes have objectives of "Summon X", but "summon" is counted differently. The Black node asks you to "Summon 3 or more Zombies in a single fight", while the Blue node asks you to "Summon 4 or more creatures during a single fight". The Black node only counts creatures that you cast out of your hand, not tokens, not spelled creatures, and not creatures revived from your graveyard. The Blue node counts creatures from everywhere -- cast, tokens, spells, revivals, abilities... 

    Under the recently provided definition, the Blue node is performing correctly and the Black node is not.

    Cast/summon should be consistent across all events in all places. I would hope that they changed the Blue node to fit their new definition and maybe they just missed the Black node. Ideally, I would hope they were checking each event as it comes up in the rotation.
  • ArielSiraArielSira Posts: 273 Mover and Shaker
    I agree, no player should know this kind of history. I just don't *expect* things to be fixed or working as they should (learning experience after 3+ years of playing).
  • KinesiaKinesia Posts: 1,548 Chairperson of the Boards
    ArielSira said:
    I agree, no player should know this kind of history. I just don't *expect* things to be fixed or working as they should (learning experience after 3+ years of playing).

    Indeed. I expect these things to be fixed over time as we raise them as bugs like this!

    Like the Werewolf node that wants you to summon 2 werewolves and 2 or less creatures... The proper fix is just to change the 2 objectives to cast and then it suddenly matches the old intent again. Totally not surprised it wasn't done upfront though.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 2,655 Chairperson of the Boards
    Drowned Secrets reads "whenever you cast a blue spell or support card" but it triggers whenever a blue support enters the battlefield (like Tezz 2's Ultimate or Djinn of 3 Wishes)
  • TheDude1TheDude1 Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    edited February 19
    Sarkhan's Unsealing reads that damage is dealt "whenever you cast a creature".  It used to go into effect anytime a creature was summoned, which gave us the Squee loop for when it returns to the battlefield.  That loop was properly adjusted, but apparently only for Squee.  Sarkhan's still triggers whenever Despoiler of Souls returns after being killed.  Not sure if it's because the mana drain on Despoiler's return tricks the game into thinking it was "cast" for three mana, but Despoiler's text says it is "returned to the battlefield", not cast.

    EDITED later to add: this may be an issue with Despoiler in particular, not Sarkhan's.  In the G/B Rising Tensions node, when Despoiler returns from the graveyard it counts as a "Cast" creature for the objective.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 724 Critical Contributor
    BOFT 2 node Mavren Fein has an objective called “call to arms” which requires you to “create 8 or more creature tokens...”

    how does create fit into this issue?
  • BrakkisBrakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited February 16
    Tremayne said:
    BOFT 2 node Mavren Fein has an objective called “call to arms” which requires you to “create 8 or more creature tokens...”

    how does create fit into this issue?

    An objective calling for tokens is it's own thing entirely separate from the Cast vs Summon debate. The only way to make tokens is to create/spawn them. Activate gems, spells, supports, and creatures create or spawn tokens.

    Create/Spawn falls under the Summon tag for the purposes of what counts as Summon though. 
  • arNeroarNero Posts: 357 Mover and Shaker
    Yeah... this Summon/Cast tinykitty, especially after the latest update, makes Nodes of Power's green node almost unplayable. Cast a creature? Goes against your objective. Summon a token? Against your objective. Stealing enemy creature? Against your objective. Reinforcing your creature? Against your objective. Getting hit by Dowsing Dagger? Against your objective. What the tinykitty.

    Anyway, yeah, aside from that, can we just, once and for all, choose ONLY Summon or ONLY Cast and not have both in various events? And make it clear also as to what counts for or against them.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 724 Critical Contributor
    @Brakkis - so would it be wrong in some way to change the wording to “summon X tokens”?

    Currently I can’t see a scenario where create is necessary. Maybe I am overlooking something?
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