Best and Worst Rogues Galleries in Comics

System
System Posts: 1,032 Chairperson of the Boards
edited January 2019 in MPQ General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: Who are your most requested characters..
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  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    We are sorely missing Iron Man villains. I liked it when he was part of the Soviet Super Soldier team with Titanium Man, Vanguard, Ursa Major and Dark Star.
    It just now occurred to me that Iron Man may have the worst rogue's gallery in all of comics.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    We are sorely missing Iron Man villains. I liked it when he was part of the Soviet Super Soldier team with Titanium Man, Vanguard, Ursa Major and Dark Star.
    It just now occurred to me that Iron Man may have the worst rogue's gallery in all of comics.
    Batman still has some of the worst villains. He also has some of the best if not the best with Joker. But condiment king and quilt man......yeesh.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    We are sorely missing Iron Man villains. I liked it when he was part of the Soviet Super Soldier team with Titanium Man, Vanguard, Ursa Major and Dark Star.
    It just now occurred to me that Iron Man may have the worst rogue's gallery in all of comics.
    What makes you say that? I think Marvel got a bit carried away with Communist villains (Dynamo, Titanium Man, Unicorn, Mandarin) but I don't think his bad guys are all that bad. Justin Hammer and Obidiah Stane were both interesting villains for Stark. I always liked Spymaster too. Moreoften than not, Tony is is his own worst enemy anyway! At least he doesn't have an arch-enemy called Egghead...
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    We are sorely missing Iron Man villains. I liked it when he was part of the Soviet Super Soldier team with Titanium Man, Vanguard, Ursa Major and Dark Star.
    It just now occurred to me that Iron Man may have the worst rogue's gallery in all of comics.
    What makes you say that?
    Because I think he has krappy villains.

    Spider-Man probably has the best rogue's gallery in all of comics. Iron Man doesn't have a single villain that's 'his' who can compare to guys like Ock, Venom, and Goblin. Even Spider-Man's 2nd-raters like Vulture and Kraven are better than anything Iron Man has. Tony's villains are more like Spider-Man's 3rd-raters (Electro, Rhino, & that ilk). I mean, Iron Man's most recognizable villain, the Mandarin, can't hold a candle to the Hobgoblin.

    Of course, the Fantastic Four have the single greatest villain in all of comics: Dr. Doom. (Sorry, Joker, but it's true).
    We will have to agree to disagree. Not over the FF, they have the best Rogues gallery in comics, Jack Kirby on fire. However Venom and Ock are, in my opinion, terrible villains, down there with Batman's motley crew. 5* Ock in MPQ is the perfect representation of him - a joke who dresses like a dentist (Christopher Priest's description more than mine).  Gob was good once but is now also sadly an also ran. Hobgoblin was indeed a superior Goblin until they also ruined him and messed up Stern's intentions via editorial.  Kingpin became a GREAT  Daredevil villain. Hammer in Demon in a Bottle and Stane did more to create great Iron Man stories than anything the odious Venom ever did for Spidey. Probably the best Spidey villain aside from Goblin ended up being Kraven but only for one story. And I will never, ever understand people's love of Mysterio - especially that awful Kevin Smith Daredevil story.

    Spidey does at least have the best "villain" in J Jonah Jameson.

    Different strokes for different folks.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,975 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    ***Mod Mode: ON***

    Split this conversation from Who are your most requested characters. thread.

    ***Mod Mode: OFF***
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,975 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    We are sorely missing Iron Man villains. I liked it when he was part of the Soviet Super Soldier team with Titanium Man, Vanguard, Ursa Major and Dark Star.
    It just now occurred to me that Iron Man may have the worst rogue's gallery in all of comics.
    What makes you say that?
    Because I think he has krappy villains.

    Spider-Man probably has the best rogue's gallery in all of comics. Iron Man doesn't have a single villain that's 'his' who can compare to guys like Ock, Venom, and Goblin. Even Spider-Man's 2nd-raters like Vulture and Kraven are better than anything Iron Man has. Tony's villains are more like Spider-Man's 3rd-raters (Electro, Rhino, & that ilk). I mean, Iron Man's most recognizable villain, the Mandarin, can't hold a candle to the Hobgoblin.

    Of course, the Fantastic Four have the single greatest villain in all of comics: Dr. Doom. (Sorry, Joker, but it's true).
    @Dormammu : I am quite curious how you rank Spider-man villains. It never occurred to me try. I am guessing it is some kind of mix between character originality, influence over Spider-man/Peter Parker's life, and power/threat level. If you have a list, I would be keen to see it.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:

    I think the idea of a *worst* Rogues gallery is probably not valid. Any Rogues Gallery can be excellent if handled well. I think a good example is probably Geoff Johns and what he did for The Flash, which had utter dregs like Mirror Master and Captain Boomerang. Black Manta has also been redeemed somewhat over the years (Aquaman was pretty great already under Peter David but most people didn’t read that) from the lows of his Super Friends days. I thought he was pretty nifty in the Aqua-movie.

    Take Batman’s Rogues gallery – many people consider Batman to have the finest Rogues Gallery but I think what has really happened is that because Batman can't move planets or travel through time, his villains tend to have to do less to be considered worthwhile foes. It also helps that more than most they are enshrined in public knowledge in a way most other villains aren’t. However, if you created The Penguin, The Riddler and yes even The Joker today, I suspect they would be considered fairly lame.


    I suppose we should remember that a lot of our Rogues Galleries were not originally created with longevity in mind. Comic books were a throw away media back through to the 70’s and ideas didn’t have to be good ones as long as they got that months issue out. If you read early Batman comic books, you would not be gasping in awe at how depraved the Joker was, you would be scratching your head as to why he used the word “boner” so much (and also why Batman, Robin and Superman like to sit on enormous guns but I digress…)



    I agree with you, good or bad enemies really just come down to good or bad writing.  Joker was awesome in Dark Knight, and trash in Suicide Squad. Vulture was great in Homecoming, and an afterthought in the PS4 game. A lot of it depends on the hero, too. Spiderman and Batman have good enemies because they are good/ interesting characters. They've also had more storylines than less popular characters, which also helps.

    Also agree that it helps to have been around forever. They did, and still do I think, just throw in villains and see what sticks. The longer they've been around, the more chances some writer pulls their name out of a hat and puts them in a new comic. Punisher started as a random Spiderman villain. They also don't make many new characters. Heros or villains tend to be new versions of old characters nowadays. For better or worse, we are in the IP/sequel era.

  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't know about the best rogues galleries in all of comics. I was never much of a DC reader (though I was one of the people who was glued to Peter David's run of Aquaman, @DAZ0273 ).

    I'm sure arguments can be made for Batman; his villains are interesting because they are so colorful and wacky. I like the theme behind Batman's villains in that they are all mentally insane, which makes for a great story arc every five years or so when they all break out of Arkham at the same time. The Flash is widely considered to have one of the best rogues galleries, but I never read the Flash so I have no idea if that's accurate or not. Superman's villains are okay. I mean, he's got Lex Luthor who is probably the third greatest villain of all time behind Dr. Doom and the Joker, but they get a little weak after that. Mr. Mxyzptlk always amused me.

    But I can speak to Marvel's rogues very confidently.

    Obviously I'm affectionate for Spider-Man's villains (see my post above). They are my favorite. After Spidey, it's got to be the X-Men. Their primary villain is second only to Dr. Doom (in the Marvel Universe). Magneto is fascinating because he's not your typical bank-robbing murdering psychopath. He's racially motivated, and those motivations at times align with the X-Men, but their methods widely differ and that's where the conflict happens. The X-Men also have Dark Phoenix, the Hellfire Club, the Brood, the Sentinels, the Brotherhood, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse... the list goes on and on. Also, the X-Men have a unique villain at times that no other heroes have: all of humankind.

    The Fantastic Four are next. They have Dr. Doom, comic's best villain. This guy has his own country of which he is in absolute control of. He stole Galactus' power. GALACTUS! But that wasn't the goal, that was just a stepping stone so that he'd have enough juice to steal the Beyonder's power. Does this guy's thirst for power have any bounds? Doom's vanity makes him utterly fascinating. No one must see his scarred face, and everyone must know he is more intelligent than Reed Richards. The FF also have Galactus, Mole Man, Blastaaar, Super Skrull, Annihilus. But more than any other comic, the FF's villains are places; the Negative Zone, the Microverse, etc.
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker

    I actually wrote an article on this topic once, if anyone wants to check it out:

    https://gotstratosphere.com/2018/05/26/stew-for-five-best-rogues-galleries-in-comics/


    Now who has the WORST rogues gallery is hard. Wonder Woman would be up there, maybe. Does Martian Manhunter even have rogues? Aquaman.

    In Marvel, I might think Iron Man, yeah. And Hulk, possibly.

  • MushroomGenius808
    MushroomGenius808 Posts: 138 Tile Toppler
    edited January 2019
    I'd vote for the X-Men, great call by Dormammu above that Humanity often presents itself to the X-Men in a dual role, both the Antagonist and "damsel in distress".  "Protecting a world that fears and hates them", is often a focal point of their adventures.
    By design, the X-Men fight other groups of villains but lumping them together in a single heading doesn't do them justice.
    Within the Brotherhood are members like:  Magneto, Mystique, Blob, Toad, Mastermind, Sabretooth, Juggernaut, and even for a time: Rogue, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch.
    Within the Hellfire Club:  Emma Frost, Sebastian Shaw, Donald Pierce, Selene
    Within the Morlocks:  Callisto, Caliban, Masque, Leech


  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Fun read, @NotBAMF It was interesting to see that our top 2 Marvel picks are the same.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    The only problem with the X-men's Rogue gallery was that once they figured out that maybe Magneto was a bit complicated, maybe not even really a bad guy then all of a sudden all of them are maybe, sort of, possibly not completely bad. Next thing you know - they are on the team! Juggernaut, Mystique, Emma Frost even bloody Sabretooth! And of course, for the most part they didn't replace them with anybody of the same quality. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:

    I actually wrote an article on this topic once, if anyone wants to check it out:

    https://gotstratosphere.com/2018/05/26/stew-for-five-best-rogues-galleries-in-comics/


    Now who has the WORST rogues gallery is hard. Wonder Woman would be up there, maybe. Does Martian Manhunter even have rogues? Aquaman.

    In Marvel, I might think Iron Man, yeah. And Hulk, possibly.

    Green Arrow? I mean the show featured a total of uhm, Merlyn? Anyone else? Then it had to start stealing Titans and Batman foes. Even Hawkeye has Crossfire. Trickshot and Oddball.

    Manhunter did have a Martian arch enemy I seem to remember but he was never much of a headliner really.

    Wonder Woman has Ares, Artemis, Cheetah, Hercules among others, seems OK. Oh and Nazi's!

    The Defenders (Original not Secret or Netflix) possibly had the strangest villains thanks to a mixture of Steve Gerber and them tending to fight more supernatural enemies.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Next thing you know - they are on the team!
    I like that. It adds a layer of complexity. One of the (few) things that the X-movies get right is the history between Charles and Erik. They were friends, allies even. They want the same thing. In the comics, the fact that Magneto has been headmaster of Xavier's school makes it that much more personal when the X-Men find themselves at odds with him, because now it's not a such a black and white fight. It creates conflict within the X-Men when some of them start to think maybe Magneto's way is better. As readers we can relate to that, as our real world is filled with situations where we may want the same thing but disagree (with our own friends and even family!) on how to achieve what we want.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Next thing you know - they are on the team!
    I like that. It adds a layer of complexity. One of the (few) things that the X-movies get right is the history between Charles and Erik. They were friends, allies even. They want the same thing. In the comics, the fact that Magneto has been headmaster of Xavier's school makes it that much more personal when the X-Men find themselves at odds with him, because now it's not a such a black and white fight. It creates conflict within the X-Men when some of them start to think maybe Magneto's way is better. As readers we can relate to that, as our real world is filled with situations where we may want the same thing but disagree (with our own friends and even family!) on how to achieve what we want.
    I had no issue when they did it with Magneto, it followed an arc of redemption and Mags was always complicated. But it really should be something unique. I think Juggernaut, Sabretooth and personally even Emma give you much more as villains. There are already plenty of X-Men without having to co-opt the bad guys.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    X-Men: First Class is such a good Star Wars prequel...

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