Problematic deck: Kiora-Array

Kinesia

I had a great loop happening in my Arlinn werewolf deck where I was going to beat the angel boss in the consulate in <7 turns... But 3 times in a row it crashed my phone through overheating so I gave up.


If combos are meant to be hard I'd prefer it not be by overheating the phone and crashing!

andrewvanmarle

madwren said:

andrewvanmarle said:7

@madwren

You just spelled out a win condition, using the opponent's deck against itself, what are you poohpooh-ing about. 

I'm not sure if you actually read my message, but yes, the best counter to these decks is to run these decks yourself, not to advocate bad cards like Kambal as a viable sideboard option.

Yes I did read your message thank you very much, and you - in your counter arguments-  gave a nonloop win condition to work with. 


Just because the cards I proposed aren't an auto win doesn't render them impractical irl.
Make that statement - after--you built a deck and played it against a Kiora loop. (like I did)
By the way, I forgot to list the mistcaller. 

Toodles... 

Kinesia

Flash is a good start to allowing counters to _some_ of this, the ones that rely on creatures can potentially be killed before attack. But others it doesn't help with, we need a way to drain mana from the first card preemptively, a _real_ counterspell...

octal9

andrewvanmarle said:

By the way, I forgot to list the mistcaller. 

also missed this

arNero

__Adam said:

arNero said:

If they can do that much, why not touch some of the other busted Legacy cards?

Because it's a bottomless pit of fail. It would require an entire rewrite of the whole block to even have a chance. And oddly enough, there's an audience that likes the broken af format.

I agree, they should have left cycling alone. I suspect they only fixed it because it's broken and inexpensive to achieve, hurting their bottom line.

Okay, so related to what I said, I suppose you can say that this thread I made could also have been read as:

Revert the changes to Cycling decks and leave Legacy alone after that.

Basically I am annoyed that not only they touch only ONE of the most useful decks out there, they then just leave and never do anything similar to the others, as if in their mind, Cycling deck is the greatest mistake in game design far beyond Kiora-Waterveil or prenerf Baral.

(I'm rather reluctant to describe Cycling deck as powerful; A deck which the AI cannot use properly at all can hardly be called halfway decent, forget broken)

Stormcrow said:

If, despite all these factors since its inception, you still think that this particular combo deck needs a nerf, it might just be time to take a hard look at yourself in the mirror and admit that you just don't like combo decks.

To which my kneejerk reaction is to say "Suck it up buttercup, combos are part of Magic", but that's probably not the most tactful or understanding reaction so let me try to walk it back a little and suggest more charitably that we are approaching from different perspectives.

...

There are exceptions of course. Sometimes a truly degenerate combo can come into being and need to be nerfed. A combo deck that absolutely does win at a way higher percentage rate than equivalent aggro or control decks. But that kind of deck is usually absolutely obviously detrimental to the metagame - something that strong will be everywhere all the time. Prismveil, a combo deck that has quietly existed for two and a half years, is as far from that as a combo deck can possibly be. Leave it alone.

For the first two paragraphs: If you call HUF + Deploy as combo deck, I'll have you know I play it, and as much as I find it useful I also consider it to be rather degenerate, which in case you cannot guess, means that HUF and/or Deploy would have been next in my list of nerf consideration; they're just too good.

But nevermind, I guess you have already made your point, I won't even dream of trying to change it.

As for the "Leave it alone" message, see my reply to the other poster. If you absolutely HATE this kind of thread, tell Oktagon to cancel all the changes to Cycling deck so that maybe I'll shut up.

EDIT:

Let me revise my last paragraph; just remembered something now that I just mentioned about prenerf Baral....

Combo deck is one thing. Combo deck whose sole answer is to race it is not healthy (you did mention Mistcaller, to which I believe there may be a few Engulf the Shore or Imprison in the Moon going your way). Oh yes, you did say combo has always been part of even Paper Magic, but do you remember why people complained about Combo Winter?

But okay, I think I've said too much. One thing for certain, related to prenerf Baral and tangentially Omniscience, Kiora-veil is one of those combo decks that win via going infinite and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't agree that it's good for the game, which is why I made this thread.

EDIT 2:

I don't think everyone ever reads back on old posts in any thread, especially this, but I'll just say this since it has been bugging me....

You're saying people don't like having their "illusion of control" shattered due to this kind of unfair, essentially-infinite-combo decks. Um, can I ask, why do you play games? Why do people play games? People play games for some control; if you play a game where you just sit back and enjoy the "game" mocking you with this kind of thing, that doesn't really sound like playing a game now, does it?

octal9 said:

andrewvanmarle said:

By the way, I forgot to list the mistcaller.   

also missed this

Ah, thanks for reminding me, although looking at his cost, I'm rather doubtful he'll be of some help (Hour of Promise outraces him, at least)

Mburn7

I really don't think it is possible to fix Legacy.  There are just way too many cards that combo super well with each other.

I mean, sure, stuff like Omni, HUF, HoP, Deploy, and the like can be scaled back a bit.  But then there will just be some new combo that breaks everything.  So what is the limit?  Is a consistent 2-3 turn win bad but 4-5 turns is ok?  Do you think ok should be "no deck wins before turn 8 without a lucky cascade" or something?  Because I don't think that could ever happen.

I personally don't mind the brokenness, but that's mostly because the AI is just SUPER bad at running combo decks.  Like, really bad.  So even if I don't play busted loop stuff I rarely have an issue.

Also, I find it hilarious that (as someone else mentioned) Kiora was the first dual colored walker ever released in MTGPQ and she is still the most powerful of them all, even though +3 is now terrible for a mana bonus.  Now that is some killer design Hibernium.

arNero

Mburn7 said:

I really don't think it is possible to fix Legacy.  There are just way too many cards that combo super well with each other.

I mean, sure, stuff like Omni, HUF, HoP, Deploy, and the like can be scaled back a bit.  But then there will just be some new combo that breaks everything.  So what is the limit?  Is a consistent 2-3 turn win bad but 4-5 turns is ok?  Do you think ok should be "no deck wins before turn 8 without a lucky cascade" or something?  Because I don't think that could ever happen.

I personally don't mind the brokenness, but that's mostly because the AI is just SUPER bad at running combo decks.  Like, really bad.  So even if I don't play busted loop stuff I rarely have an issue.

Also, I find it hilarious that (as someone else mentioned) Kiora was the first dual colored walker ever released in MTGPQ and she is still the most powerful of them all, even though +3 is now terrible for a mana bonus.  Now that is some killer design Hibernium.

Yeah, all things said, I guess this thread was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction of seeing that busted Kiora-veil again after not seeing it for a while, especially when I remember full well that out of the many strong Legacy decks, they just HAD to pick on the one that actually pose NO threat to general players against AI. I mean, nerfing Cycling deck is like nerfing Knight of Pilgrim Road into a 12-mana 1/1 minion with ability "When this card enters the battlefield, deal 12 damage to your planeswalker". A card/combo that isn't a problem, and yet they instead hammer that further down, while some other crazy broken cards/combos (not just Kiora-veil; we have HUF-Deploy, Lich's Mastery, Starfield lock, and a few others I can't (or don't want) to remember on top of my head) remain untouched, does that make any sense?

Also, I guess it's also a bit of a carry-over from what I've seen from Hearthstone, where they occasionally take steps to neuter Legacy cards that have ended up being too good. In a way, I can see that so far MtG Puzzle Quest has done that with Baral and only Baral (although if I remember correctly, the nerf was done when he was still in Standard, so actually that's a miss topic), and aside from that, the next nerfing was on that Cycling deck, which in hindsight, as I have said again and again, is actually a stupid and needless move.

Mburn7

arNero said:

Mburn7 said:

I really don't think it is possible to fix Legacy.  There are just way too many cards that combo super well with each other.

I mean, sure, stuff like Omni, HUF, HoP, Deploy, and the like can be scaled back a bit.  But then there will just be some new combo that breaks everything.  So what is the limit?  Is a consistent 2-3 turn win bad but 4-5 turns is ok?  Do you think ok should be "no deck wins before turn 8 without a lucky cascade" or something?  Because I don't think that could ever happen.

I personally don't mind the brokenness, but that's mostly because the AI is just SUPER bad at running combo decks.  Like, really bad.  So even if I don't play busted loop stuff I rarely have an issue.

Also, I find it hilarious that (as someone else mentioned) Kiora was the first dual colored walker ever released in MTGPQ and she is still the most powerful of them all, even though +3 is now terrible for a mana bonus.  Now that is some killer design Hibernium.

Yeah, all things said, I guess this thread was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction of seeing that busted Kiora-veil again after not seeing it for a while, especially when I remember full well that out of the many strong Legacy decks, they just HAD to pick on the one that actually pose NO threat to general players against AI. I mean, nerfing Cycling deck is like nerfing Knight of Pilgrim Road into a 12-mana 1/1 minion with ability "When this card enters the battlefield, deal 12 damage to your planeswalker". A card/combo that isn't a problem, and yet they instead hammer that further down, while some other crazy broken cards/combos (not just Kiora-veil; we have HUF-Deploy, Lich's Mastery, Starfield lock, and a few others I can't (or don't want) to remember on top of my head) remain untouched, does that make any sense?

Also, I guess it's also a bit of a carry-over from what I've seen from Hearthstone, where they occasionally take steps to neuter Legacy cards that have ended up being too good. In a way, I can see that so far MtG Puzzle Quest has done that with Baral and only Baral (although if I remember correctly, the nerf was done when he was still in Standard, so actually that's a miss topic), and aside from that, the next nerfing was on that Cycling deck, which in hindsight, as I have said again and again, is actually a stupid and needless move.

Baral in his original form went infinite with a bunch of commons and uncommons.  Cycling did the same.  If I had to guess that is the reason those were nerfed while other mythic-heavy combos were not.

Now, Oktagon has started balancing older cards in new updates, so it is possible this may change.  But so far it seems the only reason a card will be nerfed is if it starts an unstoppable infinite loop.  Anything that just combos with other cards to vomit damage out is ok (again, as long as the combo takes several mythic/rares, so that not everyone can do it).

Is this right?  I dunno.  I think its ok, but I have absolutely no knowledge in proper game design.

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nerdstrap

There are dozens of game breaking bugs still ruining the events. Please take your talk of functionality changes elsewhere. It’s reductive. 

Dropspot

Let's nerf everything. This game isn't boring enough yet.

arNero

I just ran into another Kiora-Array deck again in Nodes of Power today, and suffice to say, I lost because I finish the game on my first turn.

This pretty much reinforces my statement that Kiora-Array is just much too powerful even if we know Legacy format is full of busted stuffs, and it definitely has to be put under control.

One thing I'd like to mention about your suggestions on some cards to counter this.... Kambal, Agrus Kos, Mistcaller? Yeah, in theory they may help. But they are creatures, and you know what Prism Array does to creatures, right?

Really.

Okay, some of guys, you hate people mentioning about some Legacy deck being overly busted and you hate people saying some Legacy cards needing nerfs and such. Fine. But I will stand by my statement this time about Prism Array, and as much as it will not be the least bit consolation for you, I can only say I can agree with you about just one thing: Currently the game has a few severe bugs (such as Chord lag and others), so I am perfectly fine if you want to push Oktagon to fix those first. But sooner or later, this Kiora-Array deck has to be put into trial and punished for being just way overpowered, because if not, eventually it will be the ONLY deck ever being run in Legacy blue/green events, and having any event being populated with just one deck is not healthy for the game. I will not change my mind on that.

Thank you.

andrewvanmarle

You're welcome...


by now you're starting to sound salty with your talk of punishment...

Alittle reality check for you: this deck exists for about 2 years allready and i think most of us have the required components and yet it's not  "the only deck" being played. if not now, then never.


you were just unlucky...

Edit:

My post was unkind and maybe a bit flamey, no need for that.....

Jimpark's post below is a good one, he formulates the whole thing succinctly.

Aeroplane

Meh.. There are too many cards in legacy that you can lose to quite quickly. Legacy events are like High Noon on 3 in the good old western days. Greg- Cascade , Omni , Huf , Deploy ,Whir,  Deploy, Piggy...Aaaaa!
 These are veteran decks, too. No new player will pick up the game and suddenly have these combos. Legacy is fine and Standard is fine. The coding is not fine.

Mburn7

Look, Prism Array has always been stupidly powerful.  And there have been sporadic complaints about it over the years.  But the thing is, there really isn't any way to change it without either completely changing its function or making it completely useless.

Also, like others have said, there are plenty of much more ridiculous options out there.  You won't lose a game specifically because of Prism Array, it just makes other broken combos run.  But those combos could just use other things to run instead.

[Deleted User]

There are so many things I want to say.. 

First off, I completely understand how you feel. The frustration associated with going against a Kiora gem changer loop deck is always well... frustrating. So speaking from experience, i am sorry you are being exposed to such negative feelings - it sucks. Trust me ive been there a lot in the past. I still on occasion lose to a Kiora loop deck but it is not nearly as frequent as it use to be; but, doesnt make it less annoying. Nevertheless, your feelings are valid and i fully understand that feeling. 

That said, what i can tell you is i have learned a lot during my time in mtgpq. And as degenerate as that deck may seem, i am unsure if it needs to be nerfed. For one i dont own the deck so i cant tell you with confidence one way or the other. And from my experience, seeing one side of a deck function at its optimal state is usually not a good judge of the deck. I mean i do know its really consistent and depending on what you load the deck up with, i.e. cheaper casting cost cards; the deck gets out of hand quite fast in the AIs hands.. after all, it is truly a loop deck. The thing is.. it is an intricate machine that requires multiple pieces to function so while the deck is strong, as are some of the cards - it only loops because of the cohesion of its pieces. Thus, i ask you to consider if perhaps the system is more wrong than the pieces/cards. (I will get to it later but to preface, i am talking about the mastery tiers and the lack of an AI side auto-stop function for loops). After all combos and loops are a part of MTG and MTGPQ.. and surprisingly one of their redeeming qualities for some players - me included (but i wasnt always here.. ive had so much beef with nahiri zoo double striking my face, and even josu when the set dropped.. every game, AI drops 18 power to my face while i sit there matching pebbles..)

Side note: when you get to where i am at; its about speed. Its about speed to reduce the amount of time spent on certain parts of this game to enjoy the other parts i actually enjoy. And when you slow that down, some people will get upset. We've grinded through 30min and 1 hour games before but now we dont have the time for it or dont want to do it for the 100th time; but, still enjoy the game in different aspects (Well this could just be me.. but yeah). So a portion of players have a need for speed/power, which must be respected as much as we respect the balance issues that are needed. But we are fighting in the wrong area!

Now, what i can tell you with certainty is: as you progress in the game, you will come a time when you can defeat that deck. It took me probably 1~1.5ish years but i got there. So for one, there is a light at the end of the tunnel against that deck but it requires a strong card collection. At lower levels, when you face that deck, you poo your pants a little and then want to rub that poo in your opponents face as you scream bleepity bleep bleep. Then you get to where i am and its like "meh, i got this" but every once in a while its like "uhhh ohh.. come on! Come on! Stop it! Fizzle out! Run out of gas! *press menu and quit* bleep that bleepity, waste of my time. Next game." But the gap between those two time frames is far and wide, which is problematic as it disgusts/turns off players sooner than it should. I mean it took me, minimum 9 months to over a year to get a collection strong enough (back during poor drop rates but then again cycling was on my side..). And trust me, back then, it was 100% game over for me, while i go off on a crazy rant of bleeping whales, pay to win bleepity, and all the other combos with bleepity bleeps, in an attempt to justify/rationalize the unfair situation. So perhaps its the lack of a proper tier system - copper, silver, gold, platinium - that is the real issue here. Everyone gets jammed into platinium eventually but really? Isnt that like legacy just being a graveyard? I mean there has to be an end point but it just isnt properly portioned out. 

I mean, honestly, that deck is truly an end-game deck but you as well as many others falling victim to it or having negative feelings about it is more a show of a flawed system. 

Please implement:
1. AI side only loop auto stop (2-3 hands worth of cards (12-18 cards) cast in 1 turn is enough. Program the AI to autostop! If you make more tiers, you can change it back to looping, cause higher tier could use the challenge - i honestly dont care. Kind of like how TotPs AI has a higher incidence of matching 5 match gems than other areas of the game. 

2. Tier system needs some revamping. More tiers, better player segregation so that people dont end up in inappropriate tiers. You can make a final tier that has a warning or confirmation before entering, stating how the player accept the risks and brutality of that tier. Like hardcore mode (perma death) on some games.

And finally, the only advice against that kiora loop deck is know when to quit. Sitting through hoping for an opening is only going to get you more frustrated. I know.  But otherwise, the best defense against the Kiora loop deck is offense - straight unhindered full assault offense. I am talking about a deck that wins in 1-4 turns consistently. But this means you need a strong enough collection to pull it off. Youll get there, but it will be a treacherous path. See you soon. 

[Deleted User]

As for cycling. I believe it was a necessary thing. I hate to admit it but its true.

I dont want go into detail but cycling was the only deck that could achieve all (seriously, i mean almost all) objectives with up to a 40-50% deck change to noncycling and still be consistent - it was absurd.

But this isnt nearly as important as the fact that you are forced to cycle because it is the deck with the highest consistency of all possible decks and not using it would jeopardize your leaderboard scores. That time was an era of mainly cycling - the meta was just cycling. It was like oh this would be cool to use... Nope, bleep that. Cycle again. It truly did warp the meta. I had trouble building a deck after cycling phased out cause that was all i did for such a long time.. not to mention my fingers hurt. It was hands down, the fastest, best, and most reliable option - it was so difficult to use anything else because the risks were higher.

But what made me sad was that when it disappeared there really wasnt much for players with lesser powered collections. Cycling was such an affordable and available (rarity) option and it gave players a fighting chance. And i wont lie, it carried me to where i am now.. but it left a void as mentioned, how can they combat the kiora loops if the once powerhouse cycling has been neutered? Well i dont know cause i havent used it but i hear its still viable?

So while i understand your position and feelings in addition to the hole cycling left behind; i can say with confidence: cycling needed to get nerfed. It truly was unhealthy. And i was totally against the nerf at the time. 

Tl;dr: cycling nerf needed to happen. It made me sad but it was unhealthy for the game. However it left huge unfilled gap segregating the power level between players - namely, newer vs older players

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[Deleted User]

starfall said:

Mburn7 said:

Look, Prism Array has always been stupidly powerful.  And there have been sporadic complaints about it over the years.  But the thing is, there really isn't any way to change it without either completely changing its function or making it completely useless.

Not true. You could change it's mana cost, you could change it's number of shields. You could change the number of cards it draws. You could change the effect it has on your opponent's first creature, or remove the effect completely. You could make it not trigger on your opponent's turn.

There's a broad spectrum of changes you could make to the card, and at one end, yes, it's completely useless, and at the other it's overpowered. But there's a lot of space in the middle. One example of a more balanced Prism Array is Retreat to Coralhelm. That's a perfectly decent, if unspectacular, card. And you can see that there's design space in the middle for a card more powerful than RTC and less powerful than PA.

I understand that urge to throw your hands up and declare that there's just too many moving parts in a TCG for it to ever be balanced, but it IS possible. Compare 1990s paper MTG to today, and you'll see a world of difference. They don't print Ancestral Recall any more; and when they try and make a new version of it with some kind of drawback, like Treasure Cruise, and it turns out to be too powerful, they nerf it. Today's MTG is not a perfectly balanced game (and, as has been noted before on these forums, a perfectly balanced game might turn out to be a little dull), but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be, and the game and the community are healthier as a result. Nobody wants to live through Combo Winter again.

I can see this being viable for prism-array. Not sure what id change. But casting cost seems like an easy one. Definitely needs more changes but not sure what.. the 1st creature only being affected sounds reasonable too. 

It just occurred to me.... prism array is the best defense against a kiora prism array lol. (P.S. dont own the card)

Mburn7

starfall said:

Mburn7 said:

Look, Prism Array has always been stupidly powerful.  And there have been sporadic complaints about it over the years.  But the thing is, there really isn't any way to change it without either completely changing its function or making it completely useless.

Not true. You could change it's mana cost, you could change it's number of shields. You could change the number of cards it draws. You could change the effect it has on your opponent's first creature, or remove the effect completely. You could make it not trigger on your opponent's turn.

There's a broad spectrum of changes you could make to the card, and at one end, yes, it's completely useless, and at the other it's overpowered. But there's a lot of space in the middle. One example of a more balanced Prism Array is Retreat to Coralhelm. That's a perfectly decent, if unspectacular, card. And you can see that there's design space in the middle for a card more powerful than RTC and less powerful than PA.

Yes I was being a little hyperbolic, but I don't agree that it would be so easy to fix.

Retreat to Coralhelm is a garbage card except for beginners.  If you are basing a landfall deck around it you should probably be using something else, and if you aren't it is total junk since you don't get landfalls THAT often for its measly effect to be worth it.

But fine, lets use that as a base (cheap, your landfall:  Disable and draw 1) and try to find the middle ground for Prism Array (cheap, any landfall:  Disable and draw 3)

Make it draw 2 cards instead of 3?  Still overpowered.
Remove the Disable effect?  Still overpowered, but less useful in a non-infinite combo deck
Make it draw 1 card instead of 3?  Mostly useless, but still works in the combo deck.
Remove the draw?  Useless card.
Increase the cost and keep it the same otherwise?  Still overpowered, but just takes a little longer to go off
Make it only work on your turn?  Still overpowered, but less useful in a non-infinite combo deck

Did I miss something?  I can't think of another individual effect, nor can I see a combination that would work in the desired way.