Expansion + Blue Sun Zenith is fun

Thésée

Well in fact it is not. The combo is way too powerful. 
I don't understand they didn't nerf BSZ but let's say it's a Masterpiece, it's hard to get, it must be powerful, it took us a lot of pinkies to get it, etc. Ok

But Expansion is a rare that allows to cast BSZ - the most powerful card in the game - over and over. Again,  the combo is too powerful 

UweTellkampf

I agree. The card as it is (Expansion) is great. Could be a bit more expensive, but ok. 

BSZ is way too powerful/cheap compared to any other "Free-Mana-Cards." You could still argue that it's supposed to be like this due to it MP status. Even so, it is way above any other MP concerning what it does (automatic win if you pull it in the first 1-3 rounds. 

One solution: Make BSZ more expensive to cast overall. 

Better solution: Let Expansion give it only the ground base amount (6) of mana.

bk1234

Is BSZ really the most powerful card in the game though? 

Thésée

bken1234 said:

Is BSZ really the most powerful card in the game though? 

It's highly debatable of course  I think it is but there are myriads of other candidates. 
But my point was more that Expansion makes it even more powerful  Like HUF with Deploy 

EvilDead

UweTellkampf said:

Better solution: Let Expansion give it only the ground base amount (6) of mana.

Truly, they need to exclude "Stored Mana" from the "Full Mana" and make casting mana the only thing that is given. It would still be ridiculously powerful but a lot less broken.

BSZ and Hazoret should both be changed honestly so that they only give a certain cap of mana. The shenanigans are absurd when you have 20+ mana cards (normally mythic+) gaining full mana in all at once.

But everyone so loves their instant win.

Thésée

After a long discussion with a teammate I have to add this : I got Expansion only today and have tried only in Trial of Ambition (so Legacy).

My teammate (Jim Park) pointed out to me that in Standard it is really restrictive to build around the combo since you're limiting yourself to one spell that costs 7 or less. Plus Expansion is of course a dead card as long as you don't have BSZ (its flip side is a draw spell  but not an effective one) 
I should have tried this further before shouting fire. Will do ! 

Gabrosin

bken1234 said:

Is BSZ really the most powerful card in the game though? 

It's the most powerful card in Standard.  I don't think it's a particularly close conversation either.  In Legacy, you could arguably generate a greater advantage with Omniscience or Deploy or HUF or possibly a few other things, but it's at least in the conversation.

I don't think it should be nerfed, but there's no denying its raw power.  It turns one card and 16 mana into six cards and 72 mana.

madwren

Thésée said:

After a long discussion with a teammate I have to add this : I got Expansion only today and have tried only in Trial of Ambition (so Legacy).

My teammate (Jim Park) pointed out to me that in Standard it is really restrictive to build around the combo since you're limiting yourself to one spell that costs 7 or less. Plus Expansion is of course a dead card as long as you don't have BSZ (its flip side is a draw spell  but not an effective one) 
I should have tried this further before shouting fire. Will do ! 

That's not really true.  Expansion will cast the first card in your graveyard every time. Since no cards are exiled, it's the same first card every time. It just means you need to be careful about which one you cast. You can still include cheap spells without having it interfere, as long as you're willing to wait on using it.

Also, like most fetchers, the importance of Expansion is in sustaining loops. It doesn't matter that the flip side is relatively useless, or that it is occasionally a dead card.  It's an enabler. A facilitator. Once you get BSZ drawing an Expansion which copies a BSZ which draws an Expansion or another BSZ, meanwhile benefiting from everything happening in between, you're golden. 

Very powerful.

(standard disclaimer: acknowledgement of a card's power is not the same as advocating for a nerf)

[Deleted User]

Oh man.. now i am going to have to write something here.. 

The combo is powerful in standard but there are certainly quite a few limitations of the combo. (Will not address legacy at all)

To talk very very briefly without too much analysis, the ideal situation is to start with expansion into BSZ into expansion, etc etc. But it requires quite a few pieces of critera/circumstances to be met - the in-game situation (i.e. having the pieces or "semi-looping" into the RIGHT pieces) and the deck situation (i.e. cards in your deck).

So the deck has to have specific cards to increase synergy (in other words a limited pool of cards); however, it comes at the cost of not being able to accomodate all circumstances, i.e. having access to exile removal, non-exile removal, anti-hexproof removal, mass removal, support removal, etc etc. These utility life saving cards clutter the speed or "semi-loop". In other words, you have to sacrifice certain things to run it efficiently which makes it a bit more difficult to run in certain events; as there would be a higher than normal probability of danger/risk. I believe it is more of a glass cannon build. You can mix the build with other builds or make something that accommodates objectives but it will not be as consistent. What i mean is the more cards you put in to fetch or enable the combo, the more semi-dead/dead cards you end up with; but go the other direction, the more cards to gunk up the flow. Strong, yes. Consistent, no. 

There are quite a few other points and even this point alone has some other things that must be elaborated to fully see that its not nearly as all powerful as it seems. Strong, yes. All-powerful, no. 

Headlines of other points to the above point:
1. 8-12 (13-14 doable) mana cost card limitation unless you have mana gain cards/extra swaps(stitch in time)/etc. 
2. Should you have mutliple less than 7 mana spells. The delays but also how drastically it changes the direction of the deck with it being very difficult to rectify once changed.
3. 2nd BSZ cast from 1st BSZ lowered mana problem
4. Drawing multiple BSZ/card draw/expansion consecutively problem.
5. Player vs AI control differences

So on and so forth. 

If ever there is a worry its actually not these two cards together as much as it is the soon to be triad with stitch - the triple threat. 

If anything, my proposal would be to make expansion copy the last spell as opposed to the first spell. This way it creates versatility with expansion and further restricts/limits this combo while not fully shutting it down.

Theros

There are many interactions that are too powerful for standard without BSZ. Should we go on the hunt and nerf whatever deemed too powerful ?
On slack we share and make decks to test the limits of the game for fun.
A BSZ deck is not necessary the best, there are way faster and more efficient interaction out there in standard.
We can start by neefing, STV, all surveils , beacon bolt, undergrowth, 3 + gem changers, in Bola clutches, all extra swaps, decree, LU, isareth, bonds, both bolas, kiora, etali,teferi....

UweTellkampf

Theros said:

We can start by neefing, STV, all surveils , beacon bolt, undergrowth, 3 + gem changers, in Bola clutches, all extra swaps, decree, LU, isareth, bonds, both bolas, kiora, etali,teferi....

Actually yes, why not?

andrewvanmarle

EvilDead said:

 

But everyone so loves their instant win.

Yes I do so leave it alone

And 3.1 will fix this anyway (with copies only playable the next turn) 

Laeuftbeidir

@jimpark

"Strong, yes. Consistent, no."

I guess you did not set it up properly, then. Or you are missing some other key cards that have or haven't been mentioned here - I can assure you that my version is quite reliable, winning 95% of the time in 5 or less turns (it never lost) without sacrificing removal options.

I now compare legacy cards to the standard powerlevel..in legacy I never was able to deal +300 damage on turn one (yep, no deploy). 

The thing they want to do with copies will likely be the end of that combo. That's okay, it isn't healthy anyway!

[Deleted User]

Laeuftbeidir said:

@jimpark

"Strong, yes. Consistent, no."

I guess you did not set it up properly, then. Or you are missing some other key cards that have or haven't been mentioned here - I can assure you that my version is quite reliable, winning 95% of the time in 5 or less turns (it never lost) without sacrificing removal options.

I now compare legacy cards to the standard powerlevel..in legacy I never was able to deal +300 damage on turn one (yep, no deploy). 

The thing they want to do with copies will likely be the end of that combo. That's okay, it isn't healthy anyway!

Oh let me clarify. I did. I also achieved less than 5 turn kills (standard) with high consistency - but it still qualifies under a relatively restrictive build that cannot accommodate all the different objectives/problems out there, in terms of stability/safety. I believe for certain events (coalition), there exists an odd but higher regularity of card draw, gem layout, gem match problems, etc that exist; and thus, while the build is great, it would be more susceptible to these things, hence, reducing its reliability. It certainly has more flaws that the different cycling deck builds (in the past), which could technically accommodate most to all scenarios. Despite all this, it is strong but holds a bit more risk than other options, i believe. (But perhaps your build is more stable and may achieve a good balance. If you would like to share, i would be interested; maybe after the update since then the strategy will be pretty dead-ish anyways.)

For dailies and PvE yeah its great, strong, and fun but for more competitive and difficult events, i do wonder about the increased risks. There are just so many things that could go wrong, which could be better addressed with a safer more stable build. And we all know 1 missed objective is not an option in those coalition events. 

I know the most ideal build (standard) can OTK with relative ease or within 3-5 turns kills with 95% or more consistency; but, i will never be able to experience it as i am missing the biggest and most difficult to obtain piece. Not to mention the other variations i want to try require other mythics.. which with my terrible drop rates just isnt going to happen before the update. 

[Deleted User]

That said, i am a firm believer in balance. However i came to an interesting realization as i was pushing for nerfs. Part of the charm of mtgpq is actually its overpoweredness or giving that sense of satisfaction i believe. (Preferrably without trolling or harming other players but yeeeeah..)

If this game were truly balanced... wouldnt it feel a little mundane and boring? (Not to mention super super time consuming, as all those balances would make each game even longer). 

**Side note: this time consuming part is a big one for me. Definitely need some strong cards to mitigate the time it takes on certain events.. looking at you PvE AM, God-pharoah, even the solo events**

And so while nerfs/changes are needed from time to time, there needs to be a balance between overpoweredness and boring as well. And this balance is very difficult to achieve, as there are many perspectives on the issue. 

But not only this, theres a set standard of overpoweredness we have grown accustomed to, such that a drastic change would turn off certain groups/people. And opinions fluctuate as was the case with the cries of crapsterpieces or mehsterpieces. In the end, it has to be balanced and as such some degree of overpoweredness must keep existing - its a fine line. 

Hence, i have become very conservative in my call for nerfs/card changes; and mainly advocate for more buffs than nerfs.

[Deleted User]

Laeuftbeidir said:

@jimpark

"Strong, yes. Consistent, no."

I guess you did not set it up properly, then. Or you are missing some other key cards that have or haven't been mentioned here - I can assure you that my version is quite reliable, winning 95% of the time in 5 or less turns (it never lost) without sacrificing removal options.

I now compare legacy cards to the standard powerlevel..in legacy I never was able to deal +300 damage on turn one (yep, no deploy). 

The thing they want to do with copies will likely be the end of that combo. That's okay, it isn't healthy anyway!

Also to note is i havent explored all venues with it so you may be very right. And there are other self limiting factors on my part that may restrict consistency, i.e. pw availability and such, aside from just cards. 

And 95% consistency is great but i guess i was thinking more along the lines of 99%+ or above consistency as well. Not to sound like im arguing just more of a personal standard thingy - im more of a safe sure shot guy. 

Its like HUF/deploy. Strong and at times oppressive with great consistency; but (aside from Karn) the color restrictions - red/white - dont lend to 99%+ consistency. I say this because when it goes off it works but if you dont draw the pieces or get delayed which white has some issues with, it is not 99%+ consistent. You can close the gap with cards or find ways to stay alive until then but it doesnt change the fact that it is not 99%+ consistent. But i guess for this situation, it is more of this is one of the fastest, best, and most consistent strategies for red/white available currently.. heh

Laeuftbeidir

You're totally right with the objectives. It can't be used on cast x or fewer of.. Well, anything, since it's totally out of control what happens when.

I'll send you the link to a video with one of the decks - in the meantime I changed some things since I pulled a nice jumpstart spell and the mythic support that will become useless with the next update.

andrewvanmarle

The discussion is moot, 3.1 is live and the combo doesn't work anymore... 

andrewvanmarle

jimpark said:

That said, i am a firm believer in balance. However i came to an interesting realization as i was pushing for nerfs. Part of the charm of mtgpq is actually its overpoweredness or giving that sense of satisfaction i believe. (Preferrably without trolling or harming other players but yeeeeah..)

If this game were truly balanced... wouldnt it feel a little mundane and boring? (Not to mention super super time consuming, as all those balances would make each game even longer). 

**Side note: this time consuming part is a big one for me. Definitely need some strong cards to mitigate the time it takes on certain events.. looking at you PvE AM, God-pharoah, even the solo events**

And so while nerfs/changes are needed from time to time, there needs to be a balance between overpoweredness and boring as well. And this balance is very difficult to achieve, as there are many perspectives on the issue. 

But not only this, theres a set standard of overpoweredness we have grown accustomed to, such that a drastic change would turn off certain groups/people. And opinions fluctuate as was the case with the cries of crapsterpieces or mehsterpieces. In the end, it has to be balanced and as such some degree of overpoweredness must keep existing - its a fine line. 

Hence, i have become very conservative in my call for nerfs/card changes; and mainly advocate for more buffs than nerfs.

I really agree with this guy! 

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mburn7

starfall said:

This thread is making me seriously consider quitting the game for good. I wasn't aware that this many people want to play non-interactive combo decks that win before the opponent has had a chance to play any cards, and that isn't the game that I signed up to play: It's not Puzzle Quest, and it isn't Magic:The Gathering. Even in the eternal formats, paper MTG is far more interactive than this, and in Standard, this type of one-sided combo deck is always kept under control by WOTC by means of the banned and restricted list.

You didn't realize people like winning?  Of course people love using insta-win combos.  Its the easiest way to guarantee those sweet first place rewards.  The only reason it isn't a bigger issue is that Greg the Dummy AI usually can't pilot those decks well at all.

And in paper those same things exist despite the banned list.  I played Commander with a 14 year old once and he killed me turn 4 with an infinite Hepatra combo (infinite 1/1 deathtouch snakes is really annoying).  One of my other opponents countered that by creating infinite thopters with his combo (some artificer angel I had never seen before).  Magistrate's Scepter seems to have been specifically designed to give infinite turns with Contagion Engine and Surge node.  I personally run a vampire legacy deck that has Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond (infinite), although I have never actually gotten them both out at once before.  Niv Mizzet (1 and 3) go infinite with Curiosity.

(there are just so many 2 card infinite combos in paper, and almost none of them are banned).

As for PQ, the devs (old an new) have actually done a really good job in limiting the number of infinite loops that can be created (cycling notwithstanding).  When Harness the Storm and Season's Past came out and went infinite, the entire mechanic was changed to prevent that from happening anymore (both can still get loopy, but it takes significantly more work).  Baral and Naru Meha were both nerfed because they went infinite fairly easily.  The self-destructing support was invented to stop Gonti's Heart from going infinite.  The Torrential Gearhulk was even nerfed before it was released because we pointed out that it would be infinite.  Currently there are only a couple ways to really go infinite in PQ, and they are really super high-budget decks that require very specific mythics and/or masterpieces, and at least 60% of them rely one one specific legacy mythic (love you HUF).

Look, I can't force you to feel a certain way.  And if you want to quit the game that's on you.  But to say that non-interactive combo decks aren't what you signed up for is just not true at all.  You don't have to play them (I almost never do because they bore the hell out of me), but please don't stop playing a game you enjoy because other people do.