HUF Deploy

GrizzoMtGPQ

madwren said:

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

We desperately need a ban list in Legacy just for the sake of making us actually innovate. 

Cards that should be banned:

Seasons Past
Omniscience
Hazoret's Undying Fury
Stitch in Time
Blue Sun Zenith

All of these cards are an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else so as to force the player who has them to play them in EVERY deck. You can't help it because anything else is just inviting yourself to lose. Seasons Past is wicked broken because it causes looping like nothing else.

FYI: I have all of these cards and would still recommend that Oktagon/D3 ban all of these.

Rishkar's Expertise would like to have a word!

Your point is well taken, but it's true in Standard and Legacy both. There are cards that remain the gold standard, like Gaea's Revenge, which crowds out other would-be viable options because it's so strong.

Basically, when a card allows you to cast something for free or return mana that's exponentially greater than the mana invested, it's gonna break. But I think the sickness is a bit deeper than the spells listed.  There are others whose sole purpose is to facilitate loops. Rashmi, Prism Array, Waterveil, and Rx, for example, some of the many "build your combo" components that Kiora specializes in.

Even HUF is primarily a facilitator; it's only as powerful as the spell it's fetching. Heck, HUF Deploy is definitely the laziest win condition in the game. It's my go-to for "I just want to finish TotP/TG and get to bed".   Even cycling was more work than HUF Deploy on physical effort alone. 

What kept Rishkar off the list is that it has a downside. You must have a significantly full hand to get mana back. That interplay makes it somewhat balanced but still powerful.

madwren

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

madwren said:

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

We desperately need a ban list in Legacy just for the sake of making us actually innovate. 

Cards that should be banned:

Seasons Past
Omniscience
Hazoret's Undying Fury
Stitch in Time
Blue Sun Zenith

All of these cards are an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else so as to force the player who has them to play them in EVERY deck. You can't help it because anything else is just inviting yourself to lose. Seasons Past is wicked broken because it causes looping like nothing else.

FYI: I have all of these cards and would still recommend that Oktagon/D3 ban all of these.

Rishkar's Expertise would like to have a word!

Your point is well taken, but it's true in Standard and Legacy both. There are cards that remain the gold standard, like Gaea's Revenge, which crowds out other would-be viable options because it's so strong.

Basically, when a card allows you to cast something for free or return mana that's exponentially greater than the mana invested, it's gonna break. But I think the sickness is a bit deeper than the spells listed.  There are others whose sole purpose is to facilitate loops. Rashmi, Prism Array, Waterveil, and Rx, for example, some of the many "build your combo" components that Kiora specializes in.

Even HUF is primarily a facilitator; it's only as powerful as the spell it's fetching. Heck, HUF Deploy is definitely the laziest win condition in the game. It's my go-to for "I just want to finish TotP/TG and get to bed".   Even cycling was more work than HUF Deploy on physical effort alone. 

What kept Rishkar off the list is that it has a downside. You must have a significantly full hand to get mana back. That interplay makes it somewhat balanced but still powerful.

Sure, but that's what I meant by facilitator. Rx is either an extremely cheap way to kick off your loop by filling your whole hand with mana, or an extremely cheap way to *sustain* the loop once it gets going. It essentially prevents stalling that can (and has) actually occurred in the old days when SP and Renewal were the core ramp spells.  Its downside is minimal, at best.

FindingHeart8

I'm not going to be on the front lines of another "to nerf/ban or not to nerf."

All I'm going to add to this is

 1) that sometimes, an easy win is okay, and

2) that debates like these were probably a catalyst for why the developers dont pay attention to these threads anymore.

That is all, hope you all have a pleasant evening 

Laeuftbeidir

madwren said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

Edit :

By the way, stitch is only good in combo decks. I have it, without bsz it's just not a really good card to play (two swaps for a card returning 1-3 swaps is actually not a good ROI. Looping into it makes it broken indeed)

It can be argued that cards facilitating combos/loops are just as broken as the win conditions themselves, even if they aren't extremely powerful in a vacuum.

Sure

 that, and I'm on the same side of the argument.

I was too lazy to quote properly, I had this one targeted at the post above saying to put stitch in every deck.

Also, the downside of riskars expertise is actually none. The card should never have been implemented that way. But hey, it could have been worse.. It could draw cards as well!

Fredbat

So long as we continue to pump more cards into the game, degenerate cards/strategies are only going to get more and more powerful/consistent. This is a problem that will come to a head eventually, especially as the orb gains drastically increased with RT allowing for players to craft the last few cards they need to perfect the auto win decks. The MPs will take a bit more, but they aren't too prohibitive. I have no idea what the solution should be, but it seems clear that something is going to need to change. The secondaries for legacy coalition events do a decent job keeping things in check for now, though for how long this can last, who knows

Szamsziel

I think that the issue here is that there is no real countermeasures against deploy/huf or omni combo. There should be cheap countermeasures but with some drawback. Example - "card with flash and counter target spell/support/creature with cost greater than x.". Against cheap decks (aggro) this card is a dead. Against broken combos - it shines. For other colors than blue should be something else - but with the same goal - stop some strategies. 
In paper we have saint trinity combo/aggro/control - Paper/rock/scissors. But aggro against pw with 100+ life?? It just doesn't work. 

Thuran

Simply giving counter spells flash would go a very long way. 

The reason I will is the current best counter to these combos, is exactly because it prevents them from hitting the board at all. Otherwise you need things like rivers rebuke against omni, or Gideons intervention, to ensure you survive the combo going off, both a problem due to emrakul.

Otherwise, if you were to nerf them, go for a design closer to paper, and have something like HuF, deploy, and whirr only look at the top 10 cards of your library.

Szamsziel

Tricky part is that flash is badly implemented - it triggers only on attack phase. And ai cannot use it due to fact it has to be disabled. 
There has to be some changes.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

madwren

Szamsziel said:

Tricky part is that flash is badly implemented - it triggers only on attack phase. And ai cannot use it due to fact it has to be disabled. 
There has to be some changes.

Yes, flash has two great weaknesses, as you point out--attack phase dependency, and the need to be disabled. I get the feeling that this is as good as it'll get, though, unless they build in a full phase/response system which doesn't seem to currently exist.

We have an intrinsically strategic game, and an intrinsically random/luck-based game, and trying to blend them together creates these sort of issues. 

Magic the Gathering wants you to use a scalpel. Puzzle Quest is a bag of hammers.

Mburn7

madwren said:

Magic the Gathering wants you to use a scalpel. Puzzle Quest is a bag of hammers.

I like to think that MTGPQ is a good combination of the two.  A bag of scalpels, if you will.

madwren

Mburn7 said:

madwren said:

Magic the Gathering wants you to use a scalpel. Puzzle Quest is a bag of hammers.

I like to think that MTGPQ is a good combination of the two.  A bag of scalpels, if you will.

Me: "I want to destroy this enchantment."
BANG
Missed
BANG
Missed
BANG
Killed my own
BANG
Missed

Bag of hammers. =p

edit: the "automatic carriage return" is an annoying feature of these forums, any way to disable?

Kinesia

A bag of scalpels leads to accidental self-harm.

babar3355

Tremayne said:

Welcome in the Deploy TGW club. There is free champagne at all hours and strawberry all year. 😁😁😁

it is a brilliant card, but there are two things that prevent DTGW from being broken in my experience. It is boring to play and the AI can’t win with it. Maybe you have found a way but with so many supports it is doubtful that the AI will ever cast HUF, let alone DTGW.

Have fun with HUF/DTGW.

I call **** on this... I lost to a turn 1 HuF Deploy during the last HoD event.  It's rare, but it does happen.  

Also, because it is a support I frequently run into turn 1-2 Omni loops that end my existence. 

So I agree... there should never be cards that are so ridiculously powerful.  HuF and Omni are the 2 worst contenders as they create nearly endless broken combos.  Other loops like Waterviel, Sunbird/BSZ, at least take a bit of building around.