MTGPQ Color Pie

Mburn7

For everyone who doesn't know, the color pie in paper MTG refers to the strengths, weaknesses, and general philosophy of each color (White, Blue, Red, Black, and Green).  It is clearly defined and enforced pretty strictly when cards are designed (some cards do bend the pie a little and go out of their comfort zone, cards very rarely break the pie and do something outright that they should not be able to do).  The reason for the pie is to keep the game balanced and prevent a single color from becoming overpowered.


In MTGPQ, however, this tenuous balance is pretty much nonexistant.  Things that are supposed to be weaknesses in a color are instead its strengths (removal and mana generation in blue, for example), and things that are supposed to be strengths are instead weaknesses (token reliance in white or mana generation in green).

@Brigby I know this is a little long for the Q&A, but would it be possible for Oktagon or D3 to give us a concretely defined Color Pie for MTGPQ? (if they need an example I'm sure WoTC can send you one of Mark Rosewater's many articles on the subject)
Maybe treat it as a separate feature like the Leader design post?  It would be nice for us to have a reference (especially for newer players or players who aren't huge paper Magic players), and it may be a good idea for the dev team to have something like that laid out for them to follow when porting cards over.

wereotter

I think they're getting closer to being able to actually duplicate the way that the colors work compared to paper magic, however doing so will require a lot of changes on a lot of cards. I'm hopeful that with flash being introduced onto cards like Murder that we will get some actual counterspells in blue, potentially in exchange for removing free mana from that color.

SinisterOne

I think generally the Color Pie lines up with paper Magic. The main issue that creates any sort of imbalance is colorless cards, but recently this has been a weaker than before. The worst offender of this is Scour from Existence which gave every color a straight up removal. 

Multicolored cards also allow a bending to the Color Pie since a Planeswalker that is at least one of the colors can use it. One example that bothered some players was the black-red removal spell from Kaladesh (I forget the name). Black is the king of the kill spells in Magic and always has been whereas red is more about the burn or direct damage. Compare two of the earliest examples in paper and it is clear this has always been true... (Lightning Bolt and Terror) are the cards I'm referring to here. But in MTGPQ the ability for Saheeli to use Unlicensed Disintegration is a good thing and a bad thing. It gives her access to a strong card that in paper a blue-red deck couldn't use without splashing for that black mana rather it be from a dual land or mana rocks.

The issue with blue "removal" is that most newer bounce lacks the "if five or less cards in opponent's hand" clause which makes it more of a removal spell when they have a full hand. It would work better or at least line up with paper if the bounce put it in their hand as a seventh card then when the turn ended they either got to chose a card to discard or a random card got dumped if the count was still seven. 

As for tokens in white and Green they can be strong but unlike paper the 3 creature limit and reinforce can make cards like Murder feel more like a Damnation. That is a downside but white and green have always had good token strategies thanks to Sigil and the green support that creates 2 2/2s with a match of 4+. Sigil of the Empty Throne with Stsrfield has always been a strong white strategy in MTGPQ and probably always will be.

Brakkis

I think blue removal shouldn't destroy or expand the hand but rather, return to the library if the hand is full.

I would also like to state; Blue Sun's Zenith getting the insanely buffed changes it did from paper while Scapeshift got nerfed into the dirt from paper angers me.

wereotter

Brakkis said:

I think blue removal shouldn't destroy or expand the hand but rather, return to the library if the hand is full.

I would also like to state; Blue Sun's Zenith getting the insanely buffed changes it did from paper while Scapeshift got nerfed into the dirt from paper angers me.

If we're talking about bounce, blue removal should just expand the size of the hand until the end of the opponent's next turn at which point the game destroys the bottom cards in that player's hand until they're at hand max size, that's exactly how a blue spell would work in paper magic. You can theoretically get out all your stuff again if it's cheap enough, but if you can't, you have to decide what you want to throw away.

If we're talking about Turn to Frog, however, I think that spell could potentially be revised to a spell with flash that turns an enemy creature into a 1/1 with no abilities until the end of the turn rather than outright destroying the creature and replacing it with a frog token.

MTG_Mage

Color pie is very important, however this game is also very different from paper mtg.

Notable differences:

1. Only 3 card types in PQ creature/spell/support 

2. Only 3 creature slots in PQ, and combat is different

3. hand size 6 not 7, Unlimited deck size, and 10 unique cards per deck

1. yes they have sorted out supports so that there are sub-types, but in a lot of ways all supports are still treated the same - mainly support removal needs to specify what it can target as red should not be able to destroy an enchantment or aura support with demolish, but can target artifact or land supports.

2. limit of 3 creatures eliminates go wide strategies and emphasizes go tall. Blocking is different and is dictated by defender/reach/vigilance and berserker. Blocks are automatic until blocker is dead. With only 3 creatures that reinforce, a single kill or bounce spell is waaaaayyy more powerful. This gives black and blue an edge. Creature size is larger and creatures do not regenerate toughness each turn. Planeswalker HP is average of 110 hp vs 20 in paper. 

3. hand size of 6, unlimited deck size and only 10 cards per deck diminish the value of a card draw. Bounce needs to look at hand size (why this restriction was removed is puzzling).

Overall I think they have done a decent job at trying to stick to the color pie. They just need to modify some cards, such as support destruction targets (black and red should not target enchantments), add back in bounce limits, add some staple cards to origins (green and white need support destruction, and black should have a kill card with flash [murder] in origins). STV needs to be nerfed too.

Hopefully they will consider color pie and what was mentioned in this thread when they re-balance cards and PWs as they said they would.

Brakkis

But if they were to make it like paper, they'd have to code the hand to be capable of expanding, and not just by 1-3 cards. River's Rebuke bouncing a board full of supports would put a lot of cards back to hand.

I think it would just be simpler to code them to return excess cards to the library. 

Mburn7

Brakkis said:

But if they were to make it like paper, they'd have to code the hand to be capable of expanding, and not just by 1-3 cards. River's Rebuke bouncing a board full of supports would put a lot of cards back to hand.

I think it would just be simpler to code them to return excess cards to the library. 

I actually don't mind the massive expensive ones destroying the excess (old ones like Crush of Tentacles specifically stated that they were destroyed, for reference).  Its the cheap ones that are annoying, especially the non-targeted ones like Perilous Voyage.

I like the return to library idea even though it would make them still a bit too powerful (since it prevents you from drawing other cards for a few turns) because it is certainly more in blue's wheelhouse.

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HarryMason

The color pie has been pretty well destroyed by how multicolor cards are handled in this game. It's gonna get blasted into oblivion with ravnica . I don't think it bothers me all that much ,though . I like breaking rules, especially arbitrary ones like the color pie. To the game's credit, I can tell that some effort has been put towards honoring that pie. But again, multicolor 

Mburn7

HarryMason said:

I like breaking rules, especially arbitrary ones like the color pie. To the game's credit, I can tell that some effort has been put towards honoring that pie. But again, multicolor 

I'm not sure the color pie counts as an arbitrary rule, since it is carefully designed to keep the colors balanced in what they can or cannot do.  Unless you mean that in the sense that all rules are nothing but social constructs with no actual meaning, in which case we should save that debate for a different kind of forum.

And I agree that a bit of the problem is due to multicolor cards, but it certainly isn't everything.  Blue Sun's Zenith is mono-blue, for example, and is most definitely not a mono-blue card. 

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HarryMason

It might just be a difference of opinion , but I find the color pie to be incredibly arbitrary . early cards broke the pie left and right. In paper , we had cards like dark ritual and wheel of fortune. Both cards had no business being the color they were. That's what made them great .

In this game, the color pie gets pretty well disrespected by every color . Apex of power doesn't seem too red to me, the same way blue sun's zenith doesn't feel blue . I just don't see that as a problem, though. I just think they need to put more thought into card design . Both of the previously mentioned cards would still be solid if they didn't give mana. Apex is completely wrong. 

As for multi color cards, I think they're the reason that the color pie is completely moot in this game. Remember when every red deck was running an 11/11 lifelinker ? There's no reason on earth that should have happened , but it's the world we live in. I can respect a different opinion, but I enjoy playing things that are all wrong. I think that a lot of players do.

Bil

   I have the feeling that overall the color pie isnt that badly translated if we except a few cards that clearly cross the line (and that muticolored card mechanic, which i think isn't that bad overall).
   Green has big fatties, black destroys and discards, blue bounces (at least theorically) and draws, white is highly defensive and deals with tokens and red is (once again theorically) the color for direct damage.
 
   I think the real problem comes from the balance beetween colors.
  Green ramp spells and red damage spells have been tamed down too much recently (probably trying to get rid of the powercreep they had known on past sets with cards like rishkar's, green and red hour or imminent doom). As a consecuence both colors feel really weakened now (red spells are really ridiculous honestly).
   On the contrary blue feels clearly out of his boundaries in terms of power, but it is mainly because of a few cards that are arguably (or obviously?) Too powerful. The rest seems decent to me.
   White and black are quite in their places, even if that multicolored card mechanic has an important impact on a bunch of cards like glorious rebirth played in white/green.

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Grixis197

wereotter said:

I think they're getting closer to being able to actually duplicate the way that the colors work compared to paper magic, however doing so will require a lot of changes on a lot of cards. I'm hopeful that with flash being introduced onto cards like Murder that we will get some actual counterspells in blue, potentially in exchange for removing free mana from that color.

Yeah I like the idea for cancel spells I know it’s just drain the first card in hand thing now, but definitely needs to change, so should be like this, you feel the spell up have it disabled then whenever the AI casts a spell you get to see what that card is and choose whether to cancel it or not 

Aeroplane

Meh, I'd be hesitant for them to be restricted by anything for this game.The further they can break away from paper , the more creative they could become with PWs , cards, events, seasonal cards, seasonal events, etc...

Kinesia

Grixis197 said:

wereotter said:

I think they're getting closer to being able to actually duplicate the way that the colors work compared to paper magic, however doing so will require a lot of changes on a lot of cards. I'm hopeful that with flash being introduced onto cards like Murder that we will get some actual counterspells in blue, potentially in exchange for removing free mana from that color.

Yeah I like the idea for cancel spells I know it’s just drain the first card in hand thing now, but definitely needs to change, so should be like this, you feel the spell up have it disabled then whenever the AI casts a spell you get to see what that card is and choose whether to cancel it or not 

Actually... Consider a counter spell adjusted to use Flash, everything is going swimmingly until you hit... Kiora, who drains mana from your flash spell and plays whatever she wants still with _your_ mana...

Generally I really want this though!