Monocolor planeswalkers just a novelty?

Brigby

@wereotter Your comments actually spurred an interesting thought in my head.

If multicolored Planeswalkers are deemed inherently superior to monocolored Planeswalkers, primarily due to the increase in available card choices, would it make sense then for monocolored Planeswalkers to have stronger Planeswalker abilities / stats than multicolored ones?

Let's say that a Black-Blue Tezzeret has an ability that creates 3 Artifact tokens. Would it be appropriate then to have an only-Blue Tezzeret's ability be able to create 4 Artifact tokens?
(Obviously an oversimplification, but I'm just using this as an example)

Brakkis

Brigby said:

@wereotter Your comments actually spurred an interesting thought in my head.

If multicolored Planeswalkers are deemed inherently superior to monocolored Planeswalkers, primarily due to the increase in available card choices, would it make sense then for monocolored Planeswalkers to have stronger Planeswalker abilities / stats than multicolored ones?

Let's say that a Black-Blue Tezzeret has an ability that creates 3 Artifact tokens. Would it be appropriate then to have an only-Blue Tezzeret's ability be able to create 4 Artifact tokens?
(Obviously an oversimplification, but I'm just using this as an example)

I'm of the opinion that monocolored Planeswalkers should have better mana gains. Not just better than what they are now for the lower end ones. I mean better mana gains than the multicolored Planeswalkers.

If the Planeswalker is multicolored, their mana is split between the colors. If they are monocolored, their mana is more focused, and should translate to simply better gains. Not all in one color but their single color should be a spike color.

That way, the choice of Planeswalker comes to down the age old choice of quantity vs quality. You have a larger collection of cards to choose from with the multicolored Planeswalker, thus quantity; or, you have a greater gain in mana to put out the color of cards you specialize in with the monocolored Planeswalker, thus, quality.

wereotter

Brigby said:

@wereotter Your comments actually spurred an interesting thought in my head.

If multicolored Planeswalkers are deemed inherently superior to monocolored Planeswalkers, primarily due to the increase in available card choices, would it make sense then for monocolored Planeswalkers to have stronger Planeswalker abilities / stats than multicolored ones?

Let's say that a Black-Blue Tezzeret has an ability that creates 3 Artifact tokens. Would it be appropriate then to have an only-Blue Tezzeret's ability be able to create 4 Artifact tokens?
(Obviously an oversimplification, but I'm just using this as an example)

I think that's another interesting way to balance them, but I would add if that line of thought were pursued, a mono-colored planeswalker doing similar things to a multi colored one should do so for fewer loyalty points as well as possibly being slightly better. So in your example, maybe black-blue tezzeret makes 3 thopters for 8 loyalty while a mono-blue tezzeret makes 4 thopters for 6 loyalty. (again just as an example) Considering that without actually matching loyalty gems or getting cascades the two planeswalkers would generate loyalty at roughly the same rate.

Or perhaps, just as an idea that occurred to me while typing, mono-colored planeswalkers can earn bonuses to loyalty gem matches as part of their native bonuses while multicolor ones do not.

bk1234

wereotter said:

Brigby said:

@wereotter Your comments actually spurred an interesting thought in my head.

If multicolored Planeswalkers are deemed inherently superior to monocolored Planeswalkers, primarily due to the increase in available card choices, would it make sense then for monocolored Planeswalkers to have stronger Planeswalker abilities / stats than multicolored ones?

Let's say that a Black-Blue Tezzeret has an ability that creates 3 Artifact tokens. Would it be appropriate then to have an only-Blue Tezzeret's ability be able to create 4 Artifact tokens?
(Obviously an oversimplification, but I'm just using this as an example)

[snip]

Or perhaps, just as an idea that occurred to me while typing, mono-colored planeswalkers can earn bonuses to loyalty gem matches as part of their native bonuses while multicolor ones do not.

I love this idea. 

Bil

  It would definitely make sense to give monocolored walkers a solid mana bonus on the main color. If we take a look at koth (and forget about his 1st skill), his incredible bonus still makes him interesting despite being monocolored because he's able to drop huge stuff real fast if you're lucky enough to get red matches.
   Loyalty bonus is interesting too, and could fit to some walkers with specific profiles (jace3 or garruk would be decent candidates for example, because their board is meant to rely on their abilities).

SinisterOne

I currently have 11 Planeswalkers. 

Gideon1, Jace1 and 2, Liliana1 and On Nixilis,  Chandra1, Jaya and Sarkhan2, Nissa1, Teferi and Vraska. All but Ob (55), Sarkhan2 (19), Jace2 and Teferi (both 6) are level 60. I've noticed that the Origins five need a boost but the other Monocolored Planeswalkers have solid gains. The Origins five all net +5 (+3 to their color and +1 to allied colors) and 4 of the five have below 100 life at max level and the only other Planeswalker I can think of with health that low is Sorin and even he should receive a minor boost to health. Then the newer walkers all have upwards to +9 (Jaya has +5 red +4 blue, Sarkhan2 has +5 red and +4 green) at max.

What I think would be perfect to bring the Origins five up to a more competitive state would be the following.

Gideon1: Either +4 health and +2 to white or no health boost and +1 to green and blue. [108 +5 W +1 G +1 U or 104 +3 W +2 U +2 G]

Jace1: Boost his health to 94 (+6) and plus +2 on blue. [ +5 U +1 B +1 W]

Liliana1: +4 health and +1 to black red and blue . [98 and +4 B, +2 U +2 R]

Chandra1: +8 to health and +2 to red. [90 and +5 R +1 B +1 G]

Nissa1: +4 health and +2 G [102 health and +5 G +1 W +1 R]

And as side note Ob Nixilis should get +1 to black and Sorin get either +4 or +6 life bringing him to 86 or 88.

arNero

Yeah, out of the many monoclor planeswalkers we have right now, only the following few I can ever consider a threat:

Ob: Terrifying last ability that will win games against anyone not named Vraska. I'm suspecting Oktagon made Lich's Mastery to be THAT broken precisely because of Ob. (Ob has essentially no answer for Lich's Mastery; sure, someone suggested Rupture Spire, but Lick's Mastery has 5 shields, which is a LOT)

Koth: +9 Red mana gain and 1st ability that can get him more red gems can make him a major threat in a hurry (and let's not even talk about Ball Lightning and Dragon synergy)

Elspeth: A Koth-like mana gain and a decent 1st ability, and combos with activation-dependent cards (such as Pyromancer's Goggles).

The rest? I won't even discuss about the Origin walkers... Lili 1 is mostly for Griefer wannabe (Bolas 1 makes a much more dangerous Griefer). The other Lilis need some Innistrad cards to actually function at all (I'm talking about Relentless Dead and Prized Amalgam). Jaya could be good, maybe, but haven't seen her much.

I think since multicolored planeswalkers already win by virtue of wider combo potential, the monoclor planeswalker have to be buffed enough to become acceptable alternative to playing multicolor.

IM_CARLOS

... and now 5 more or less "overpowered" MC-PW and a arlinlike Bolas.

I like the he fact that some pw are perfect for different situations (events/nodes). Some are more versatile, but unique, usable skills and not mana gain make a pw interesting. Ob is perfect example. Bring his own win condition. 

Lately (before rotation) was Garruk-time with ghalta and menagerie (hod) legal. His skills shine a lot with POD legal, still. 

But I have to say, some PW are not worth it (anymore) Chandra2 for example. 

Laeuftbeidir

The new corrupted grafstone that also draws cards and is given to everyone for free is a nice example of a card that is good nearly everywhere, but gets better the more focused a pw is. I like such cards to make mono walkers more effective without going too much into depth.

Rhasget

Since posting the discussion I have almost solely played mono PWs this week and just trying out all of the ones I have (Ob, Liliana 1,2,3, Gideon 1,3, Elspeth, Chandra1, Nissa1, Jaya, Jace 1,2 and Koth).

In PvE it doesn't really matter what PW you have if you know what the matchup is. All decks have atleast one option as response to Gregs decks. I have played RotGP with only monos and pauper decks and can win all matches with all objectives comfortably.

In PvP it's alot harder since you don't know what you will face and not all colors can be versatile enough to compete here. 

And my tests actually became more of a test of colors in standard more than PWs.

White is in my opinion the best deck with the many options in tribe synergy, lockdown, removal, support destruction for low mana. This made it possible to win 9/10 Legacy TG matches with Gideon1 with very simple decks.
Elspeth is as said one of the best PWs and went 10/10.

Whereas Blue is awesome due to a few specific cards (StV and Rebuke mainly). Add in the broken bounce that destroys instead and I could go 8/10 with Jace1 (arguably one of the worst PWs) in Legacy TG with a standard deck. Jace2 landed in 6/10.

My Red PWs struggled more with both Jaya and Koth. With red lacking any real killer cards but many lesser damage spells Jaya can compete when she gets going but against many aggro Legacy decks she fell to far behind too fast. And when I switched to playing her with a more creaturebased approach it was also a bit hit and miss.
As with Koth that can run Greg down in a few turns with crazy ramp and big creatures. But also fizzle and get denied by bad mana. 
Jaya 6/10 and Koth 7/10.

Black is a mixed bag. Ob is unique and a perfect anti-Bolas PW. He can be versatile and works against most threats.
Although Blacks lack of support removal and ability to deal with Hexproof creatures is devastating.
With creatureless Ob you have one direct kill available (Eldest reborn), or use Deathtouch blockers/berserkers if going with creatures.
The Lilianas are ok but with little zombie synergy available the have lost some of their best(and most fun strategies). Having Meteor Golem in the decks made them a lot more useful, especially Liliana Deats Majesty (L2?) when you can re-enter it with first ability to remove supports and/or creatures.
L1 went 6/10, L2 8/10, L3 4/10 and Ob 10/10.

Green with Nissa1 is hard outside standard. Low gains is the biggest issue with her and then creature removal. Needing creatures to block or using as triggers for removal is a hurdle unless you try to aggro and win faster.
Against legacy decks I struggled with both approaches as I didn't get my creatures on the board for long enough to do either.
4/10 wins against Legacy in TG.

I did 10 games with each modidying decks between fights to try different approaches and some losses are mainly due to the OP:ness of some legacy decks you face. When you get the HUF/Deploy/Emrakul/Pig combo against you in turn 2 you will get a hard time no matter what PW or deck.
But it was a fun experiment and made me go outside my usual thinking. 
I don't think that mono PWs are a competetive option for me in most cases so they will be used as now, for fun and variation.
Some of the M19 monos look interesting though so I might change my mind later on.

Skiglass6

Rhasget said:

Since posting the discussion I have almost solely played mono PWs this week and just trying out all of the ones I have (Ob, Liliana 1,2,3, Gideon 1,3, Elspeth, Chandra1, Nissa1, Jaya, Jace 1,2 and Koth).

In PvE it doesn't really matter what PW you have if you know what the matchup is. All decks have atleast one option as response to Gregs decks. I have played RotGP with only monos and pauper decks and can win all matches with all objectives comfortably.

In PvP it's alot harder since you don't know what you will face and not all colors can be versatile enough to compete here. 

And my tests actually became more of a test of colors in standard more than PWs.

White is in my opinion the best deck with the many options in tribe synergy, lockdown, removal, support destruction for low mana. This made it possible to win 9/10 Legacy TG matches with Gideon1 with very simple decks.
Elspeth is as said one of the best PWs and went 10/10.

Whereas Blue is awesome due to a few specific cards (StV and Rebuke mainly). Add in the broken bounce that destroys instead and I could go 8/10 with Jace1 (arguably one of the worst PWs) in Legacy TG with a standard deck. Jace2 landed in 6/10.

My Red PWs struggled more with both Jaya and Koth. With red lacking any real killer cards but many lesser damage spells Jaya can compete when she gets going but against many aggro Legacy decks she fell to far behind too fast. And when I switched to playing her with a more creaturebased approach it was also a bit hit and miss.
As with Koth that can run Greg down in a few turns with crazy ramp and big creatures. But also fizzle and get denied by bad mana. 
Jaya 6/10 and Koth 7/10.

Black is a mixed bag. Ob is unique and a perfect anti-Bolas PW. He can be versatile and works against most threats.
Although Blacks lack of support removal and ability to deal with Hexproof creatures is devastating.
With creatureless Ob you have one direct kill available (Eldest reborn), or use Deathtouch blockers/berserkers if going with creatures.
The Lilianas are ok but with little zombie synergy available the have lost some of their best(and most fun strategies). Having Meteor Golem in the decks made them a lot more useful, especially Liliana Deats Majesty (L2?) when you can re-enter it with first ability to remove supports and/or creatures.
L1 went 6/10, L2 8/10, L3 4/10 and Ob 10/10.

Green with Nissa1 is hard outside standard. Low gains is the biggest issue with her and then creature removal. Needing creatures to block or using as triggers for removal is a hurdle unless you try to aggro and win faster.
Against legacy decks I struggled with both approaches as I didn't get my creatures on the board for long enough to do either.
4/10 wins against Legacy in TG.

I did 10 games with each modidying decks between fights to try different approaches and some losses are mainly due to the OP:ness of some legacy decks you face. When you get the HUF/Deploy/Emrakul/Pig combo against you in turn 2 you will get a hard time no matter what PW or deck.
But it was a fun experiment and made me go outside my usual thinking. 
I don't think that mono PWs are a competetive option for me in most cases so they will be used as now, for fun and variation.
Some of the M19 monos look interesting though so I might change my mind later on.

Looks like good information. I would like to know what you were running for L3. 4/10. I guess if you are trying different decks that some of them might not work but my standard L3 deck is a beast and I almost never lose with it. Maybe I just get lucky with my matchups.  It currently does not have support destruction and LM can be a pain trying to match it away. Maybe it is the cards available to use. 

Rhasget

@Skiglass6
I might have mixed up Liliana 2 and 3, I can never remember which is which.

L2 in this case is Deaths Majesty (that destroys creatures and returns as zombies as 1st ability)
and L3 is The Last Hope (that destroys a card and gain mana as 1st ability).

And the results might be somewhat skewed since I play more often with some PWs and know how to play them to their strengths better. 
I haven't played any Liliana for a long time (all three had decks that were made when AKH was standard still when I began).

Brakkis

Rhasget said:

@Skiglass6
L2 in this case is Deaths Majesty (that destroys creatures and returns as zombies as 1st ability)
and L3 is The Last Hope (that destroys a card and gain mana as 1st ability).

Ah. Ya, flip those around.

TomB

I actually do pretty good with my Legacy L2 recurring zombies deck. Using cards like Prized Amalgam, along with Graf Harvest and her ultimate, ensures a steady supply of zombies to pump up Diregraf Colossus, There's also untargetted exile with Doomfall (to get around the whole Hexproof thing), and cheap removal like Grip of Desolation to deal with fliers.

Behold the Beyond doesn't hurt either...

Rhasget

TomB said:

I actually do pretty good with my Legacy L2 recurring zombies deck. Using cards like Prized Amalgam, along with Graf Harvest and her ultimate, ensures a steady supply of zombies to pump up Diregraf Colossus, There's also untargetted exile with Doomfall (to get around the whole Hexproof thing), and cheap removal like Grip of Desolation to deal with fliers.

Behold the Beyond doesn't hurt either...

I played standard decks in Legacy TG so all those cards were not available. 
My test was to see for myself how competetive my mono PWs are if I were to use them in a PvP standard event. 

Legacy is just something completely different atm. Too bad they use it so little.