That awesome Reliquary Tower! No... no it's not.

Gunmix25

I'm here to talk about Reliquary Tower and that cannot be used effectively. This is entirely due to the wording on the card which can easily be fixed with one minor word change. More on that in a bit. 

Reliquary Tower:

Mana cost: 11
Shield: 2
Wording: "At the beginning of your turn convert 3 gems to Loyalty gems. At the beginning of your turn, drain all your mana then draw 2 cards." 

Problem here is the second part of the wording. "...Beginning of your turn, drain all your mana..."
I tested this card and in every case,  all mana from StV. Mana gem conversions,  ... all forms of mana that is gained at the beginning of a turn occurs before Reliquary Tower resolves. Every single time, you're reset to zero no matter what card with a BotT effect you use to gain mana.  

All this for 11 mana???

.....uh, no. Maybe 4. 

But I digress.



This mana wipe leads to two problems... one, the "Kiora effect"... meaning that Reliquary Tower effectively hands the opponent the lead in the mana race to cast out cards by deducting mana from your cards ... in this case, all of it. A penalty for converting 3 gems to Loyalty gems and gaining two more cards.

Secondly,  because Reliquary Tower erases the results of any BotT effects to gain mana you need to use ramp spells to get more cards out ... something only found in Legacy at the moment. Which means your opponent is unaffected by this and is able to ramp via BotT easily in Standard. 

I tried using this in a pauper Zoo with Nahiri and while Reliquary Tower helped some. I really needed to keep my creatures at a minimum of 3 to 4 mana max... and was using a Masterpiece, Slaughter Pact, to keep the big creatures at bay.  While reliquary helped me roll in Loyalty, my weaker (legacy) creatures stood no chance.  So the experiment was a failure... especially in Standard. 

Moving on.... 

The closest card in comparison is Arch of Orazca... let's look at that shall we?

Arch of Orazca:

Mana cost: 8
Shield count: 4
Wording: "At the beginning of your turn,  convert 2 gems to Loyalty gems. Activate 3: If you have the City's Blessing, draw a card,  it gains 2 mana." 

A superior card to Reliquary in every way because of the mana wipe Reliquary does at the beginning of your turn. 

But there is hope!

A simple fix that will make this card worth playing and still have the intended effect that I think the Devs were shooting for. Because in its present state,  it is absolutely useless. 

Change the wording that follows: 
"At the beginning of your turn convert 3 gems to Loyalty gems. At the beginning of your turn, drain all your mana then draw 2 cards." 

To the following:

 "At the beginning of your turn convert 3 gems to Loyalty gems. At the end of your turn, drain all your mana then draw 2 cards." 

This simple change still provides a penalty for not casting everything, nor can you utilize flash cards in your build. You can now cast cards using your converters and other BotT mana effects during your turn and not be completely reliant on your PW mana gains and a prayer to the cascade god.
 Too many cards in hand due to the 2 extra draw prevents a draw that turn... so a player needs to strategically think about what to discard, if anything prior the end of the turn,  in order to have room for a card draw next turn. The mana wipe still occurs so there is that as the devs wanted,  but the risk is more balanced in this fashion than the way it is now. The cost remains the same. 

@Brigby , please consider bringing this recommended change up to the devs. Because in its present state it is all but useless and is self defeating in a match. Test it yourselves and see. 

Anyone else have thoughts?

Please be a voice, the devs do read and take note of our comments. I think this is a fair request and does not make this rare OP but playable for all both strategically and for additional fun. 

Thank you, 

-Gunny

IM_CARLOS

You have to cast it first, because first permanent resolves first. 

Mediocre at best even then. There are better ways to gain loyalty and draw cards. 

Laeuftbeidir

IM_CARLOS said:

You have to cast it first, because first permanent resolves first. 

Mediocre at best even then. There are better ways to gain loyalty and draw cards. 

I'd even say from the top of my head :there is no worse way to do so.

bk1234

IM_CARLOS said:

You have to cast it first, because first permanent resolves first. 

Mediocre at best even then. There are better ways to gain loyalty and draw cards. 

It hasn’t been this way for awhile. 

Gunmix25

IM_CARLOS said:

You have to cast it first, because first permanent resolves first. 

Mediocre at best even then. There are better ways to gain loyalty and draw cards. 

I have and the result is the same. The support resolves after mana effects occur. It used to be resolvement order but as of maybe February after IXN came out, it hasn't been like that. 

And yeah, I covered that there is a better choice that does about the same thing but for 8 mana and better results. 

The card should be priced at 4 mana for what it does to you for 3 loyalty and 2 cards. ... full mana drain is an expensive penalty. 

For 11 mana, the 2nd effect should occur at the end of the turn.

Dibski

With the new flash mechanic cards especially seal away/murder... you couldn't pay me to play tower either way.

DumasAG

Does it work in Koth where you’re casting your hand every turn anyway? Another option might be pairing with omni or something

Gunmix25

DumasAG said:

Does it work in Koth where you’re casting your hand every turn anyway? Another option might be pairing with omni or something

That's a good idea.  Although I don't have that card. But what about standard? Any suggestions... closest I've been able to make this work.. barely  is with a pauper zoo. 

DumasAG

Gunmix25 said:

DumasAG said:

Does it work in Koth where you’re casting your hand every turn anyway? Another option might be pairing with omni or something

That's a good idea.  Although I don't have that card. But what about standard? Any suggestions... closest I've been able to make this work.. barely  is with a pauper zoo. 

Could work with Liliana’s contract. Once you have the contract’s prerequisites met, the tower draws you that many more demons to exile. 

Actually, on that note, the extra loyalty could power up Gideon 3. Draw extra cards, exile creatures you want to bring back, then use his third ability. Could be fairly powerful.

Rhasget

I have played around with it to try and get some use from it since I thought it sucked.

I actually played 15 TG games with my Jaya deck with tower and went undefeated. Probably not because of tower but it was a fun deck. And Tower helped it.

Exquisite Firecraft  Lava Axe
Fiery Intervention   Unfriendly Fire
Rupture Spire          Reliquary Tower
Dragons Hoard       Avaricious Dragon
Akroma Angel         Jayas Inferno

Tower/AV works great since you get a lot of extra mana from it destroying 3 gems at every draw. The manachangers produce a ton of loyalty and makes the board meeting more setup for cascades or good matches. And Jayas ult and all cheap burnspells you get out every turn takes out creatures.

Could maybe work as good with Alhammarets but since it's bugged it can actually break your deck if you get stuck with drawing the wrong spell indefinitely.

hawkyh1

it works ok with n3 elfhame druid(I just keep on using
her 1st ability). better if you have hallar the firefletcher
out. feels very niche though.

HH

Gunmix25

In this last event, I noticed someone found a value to it.... as an AI controlled troll card. It essentially turns your build into a creatureless and virtually castless build. So if you don't have the 4 kills you need for the objective... you're out of luck. I'm positive the player fielding this isn't casting it out since he was using higher cost cards. He's likely discarding it during his match. 

 I am positive this isn't what the devs designed it for..

FindingHeart8

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

Mburn7

I think it is still useful for high-gains walkers like Koth and Elspeth, since their biggest issue is dumping their hands without being able to easily refill them.  I'm certain there's a way to use it effectively, but it definitely doesn't seem to be able to work in every deck.

Rhasget

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

FindingHeart8

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

I've already made decks that spam Kiora's ult every turn or 2, and those are fun as heck.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

I've already made decks that spam Kiora's ult every turn or 2, and those are fun as heck.

oh for sure, even without Omniscience I can get Kiora to combo almost infinitely pretty quickly too.  She's a ton of fun to play (notsomuch to play against though).

Laeuftbeidir

FindingHeart8 said:

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

I'm not sure whether we're playing the same game. H2s ultimate isn't even remotely meh, card draw and direct mana generation in green white?

The second is okay. I've used it maybe half a dozen times, but each time it saved my game.

FindingHeart8

Laeuftbeidir said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

I'm not sure whether we're playing the same game. H2s ultimate isn't even remotely meh, card draw and direct mana generation in green white?

The second is okay. I've used it maybe half a dozen times, but each time it saved my game.

She runs similarly to Sorin.  Great if you've already built an army (in that case you probably should already be winning), but if your opponent specializes in creature removal it's going to be a long up-hill battle.

Take what I say with a bit of subjectivity though.  I'm a heavy Grixis player in paper magic and mtgpq.

DumasAG

FindingHeart8 said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Rhasget said:

FindingHeart8 said:

drawing cards is pretty useless if you have no mana to use them.

It might be more useful if instead of converting 3 gems to loyalty, you just gained 3 loyalty per turn.

Could make for an interesting new strategy, where you'd bank the game primarily on using your PW abilities as frequently as possible instead of relying on combos or power cards in your deck.

That was the idea in my deck I posted above. The gemchangers create alot of loyalty also so ult ks always ready and with the extra cards you can fling several spells every round.
It's a bit slow though and the best spell requires a legendary creature to be out. That was supposed to be Akrom but since she's bugged it doesn't work as well.

Great minds think alike, lol

Yeah Huati2 gave us a taste of how awesome it is to be able to activate loyalty abilities every turn, but her 2nd and 3rd abilities themselves are kinda meh.  Would love if a card like this made it easier to replicate with other planeswalkers.

I'm not sure whether we're playing the same game. H2s ultimate isn't even remotely meh, card draw and direct mana generation in green white?

The second is okay. I've used it maybe half a dozen times, but each time it saved my game.

She runs similarly to Sorin.  Great if you've already built an army (in that case you probably should already be winning), but if your opponent specializes in creature removal it's going to be a long up-hill battle.

Take what I say with a bit of subjectivity though.  I'm a heavy Grixis player in paper magic and mtgpq.

Interesting! As a more veteran player who seems to have a firm grounding in law in real life, I totally had you pegged as Azorius and/or Esper.