New Supports: Stepford Cuckoos (7/31/18)

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  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    Dormammu said:
    Spudgutter said:
    I call shenanigans. Nothing wrong with letting them know we are not happy with something that could impact large portions of the playerbase.
    Is that what Broll's post was? Or the same post he made in two other threads yesterday? Letting the developers know what he thinks? Okay, though... if I may... there is a Suggestions & Feedback forum he may want to try. It may result in less ABUSE flags on his posts.
    Let me ask you this, when rocket was posting every pve about tapping, a situation that directly affected dozens of people, and dozens more indirectly, where you giving him the same amount of grief?
    First of all, what does that situation have to do with this one? If I didn't have an opinion on tapping, does that mean I can't have an opinion on this one? As for 'grief', I'm going to disagree with you there. I thought my comment was civil. I like Broll. I upvote his comments regularly. But he's getting a bit silly with his nonconstructive comments against supports in every thread that mentions them and I shared my opinion with him.

    Again, to make the comparison to the tapping threads, shouldn't they have been suggestions & feedback?  No, because that is a graveyard of good and bad ideas, both of which get barely looked at and rarely implemented. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone that is upset and frustrated with a feature to put snark in a thread from time to time.  Telling that person they are in the minority and that they should "Try opening your mind to the possibilities," without actually explaining how to do so is the worse offense, imo.  Civil or not, going out of the way to shut him down is not the path we should be applauding to take.

    Implementation of supports (which may be working as intended by the devs) does not seem to be working for some people.  And often, those that defend it like yourself, only do so once you *luck* into a good one.  

    I offered in my last post: please, change my mind.  Tell me what support you have and how it works for you.  And then, tell me how i am supposed to get it so that i can enjoy it as well.
    At this time I feel Support’s are a waste of time.  Supports doesn’t help me get top 5 or lose top 5.  Impromptu meetings and my boss calling me makes me lose top 5.  Supports at this time to me personally and a lot of top end PVE players that I talk to do nothing at all.  How could we tell anyway?  We need RISO.  We need a better way to get them besides having a pay wall to get them.  If you want to make them a thing in the game for players to get behind then please make them more accessible AND let us get the resources to build them.  After that, then maybe just maybe we can give true feed back.  
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    The rockett said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Dormammu said:
    Spudgutter said:
    I call shenanigans. Nothing wrong with letting them know we are not happy with something that could impact large portions of the playerbase.
    Is that what Broll's post was? Or the same post he made in two other threads yesterday? Letting the developers know what he thinks? Okay, though... if I may... there is a Suggestions & Feedback forum he may want to try. It may result in less ABUSE flags on his posts.
    Let me ask you this, when rocket was posting every pve about tapping, a situation that directly affected dozens of people, and dozens more indirectly, where you giving him the same amount of grief?
    First of all, what does that situation have to do with this one? If I didn't have an opinion on tapping, does that mean I can't have an opinion on this one? As for 'grief', I'm going to disagree with you there. I thought my comment was civil. I like Broll. I upvote his comments regularly. But he's getting a bit silly with his nonconstructive comments against supports in every thread that mentions them and I shared my opinion with him.

    Again, to make the comparison to the tapping threads, shouldn't they have been suggestions & feedback?  No, because that is a graveyard of good and bad ideas, both of which get barely looked at and rarely implemented. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone that is upset and frustrated with a feature to put snark in a thread from time to time.  Telling that person they are in the minority and that they should "Try opening your mind to the possibilities," without actually explaining how to do so is the worse offense, imo.  Civil or not, going out of the way to shut him down is not the path we should be applauding to take.

    Implementation of supports (which may be working as intended by the devs) does not seem to be working for some people.  And often, those that defend it like yourself, only do so once you *luck* into a good one.  

    I offered in my last post: please, change my mind.  Tell me what support you have and how it works for you.  And then, tell me how i am supposed to get it so that i can enjoy it as well.
    At this time I feel Support’s are a waste of time.  Supports doesn’t help me get top 5 or lose top 5.  Impromptu meetings and my boss calling me makes me lose top 5.  Supports at this time to me personally and a lot of top end PVE players that I talk to do nothing at all.  How could we tell anyway?  We need RISO.  We need a better way to get them besides having a pay wall to get them.  If you want to make them a thing in the game for players to get behind then please make them more accessible AND let us get the resources to build them.  After that, then maybe just maybe we can give true feed back.  
    i concur.  Now, add in another layer.  Maybe i spend 211k of my 217k riso on one support, topping off a 3* at level 150.  I havent spent any yet, so that is everything i have lucked into so far.  then, tomorrow, or maybe a couple weeks from now, i actually luck into a 4* or 5* support, one that is good for me and my roster.  maybe it is some new one like the wasp gloves, where it has fewer levels because it will power up quicker.  Now, i have to wait months again to get that one up to a reasonable level.  and that is just two supports.  out of way too many.  

    so, while those lucky few that lucked into good or high tier supports whine about brolls sarcasm posts, adding just as little to the conversation, i will continue to "like" posts that point out how unexciting supports are.  maybe eventually that will actually change something.
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    The alternative is that they actually fix the red iso shortage, devaluing our stockpiles.  If that happens, then spending the red iso and getting an immediate benefit would be the right decision.

    But with no indication of a change, I think I'll continue to stockpile.
  • dr tinykittylove
    dr tinykittylove Posts: 1,459 Chairperson of the Boards
    As a collector-type player who doesn't really worry how good or bad a character is, I am profoundly apathetic about these ever increasing numbers of uncollectable supports.

    While there have been several good changes recently, especially saved covers (which do not actually affect me much), another new support following that bit of good news pretty much kills my goodwill again.

    I have saved, decreasing numbers of tokens for each new support store, and zero inclination to bother with the current new one. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    I just want to clarify that I'm not really down on the notion of supports generally, they are just impossible to do anything with or chase on purpose so when they are clearly hamstringing resources I am able to get (characters) by putting key elements of their design out of reach, it dampens my enthusiasm for new characters and new supports.

    Supports are harder to acquire than 5* covers, and even if I do get one, they are borderline impossible to level. I've thrown every single riso I've acquired since the feature went live into my 3* Elemental Guns, and they are still only 115/150. And now, I have other supports I wish I'd spent that RISO on and it seems highly unlikely it's going to be coming any time soon. 
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
     ...it dampens my enthusiasm...
    This is the #1 problem right here. It's hard to get excited about something when we have no path to get it. I think most players would love to collect and use supports; they potentially add a whole new layer of strategy to the game.

    But how am I supposed to show any enthusiasm about going to Disneyland if there are no roads I can use to drive there?
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
     ...it dampens my enthusiasm...
    This is the #1 problem right here. It's hard to get excited about something when we have no path to get it. I think most players would love to collect and use supports; they potentially add a whole new layer of strategy to the game.

    But how am I supposed to show any enthusiasm about going to Disneyland if there are no roads I can use to drive there?
    Where we are going, we don’t need roads. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
    Dormammu said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
     ...it dampens my enthusiasm...
    This is the #1 problem right here. It's hard to get excited about something when we have no path to get it. I think most players would love to collect and use supports; they potentially add a whole new layer of strategy to the game.

    But how am I supposed to show any enthusiasm about going to Disneyland if there are no roads I can use to drive there?
    In my mind, creating un-attainable supports is one thing, because it's a new feature with some fundamentally different economy mechanics (no duplicates on roster, linear growth, can't sell them) that require a careful rollout. But then creating an artificial demand for them by having them be essentially required equipment on new characters going forward actively hurts my interest in collecting ANYTHING new, you know? Like I want to like Emma Frost as playable because the character is iconic and cool, and I'd equip her with cool gear if I had it, but to tie a flat-odds 4* who is already hard enough to get to a functionally impossible to acquire (on purpose) support is just...enthusiasm dampening.

    Which is why I really do think that paying the champ-tax on characters like this who have supports only they can equip should get you their 1* support. I don't think replacing the LT at 271 is right, and neither is requiring any further covers beyond exactly champion to "complete" the character.

    I would be open to "limited" characters granting support tokens, possibly even in lieu of their LTs, since getting them is such a challenge. Like we have access to Devil Dinosaur once a year. His champ levels, to my knowledge, are no different than any other non-feeder 4*. That is #sad
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    purplemur said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Dormammu said:
    broll said:
    Borstock said:
    Feels like a dud support, to be honest. 
    Redundant post is redundant. You could have just said it feels like a support. The dud is assumed when you say supports. 
    Y'know, Broll, you can keep making this redundant post every time someone says the word 'support', but I think we get it. You don't think much of supports. But as they continue to become a bigger and bigger part of the game, you become part of a smaller and smaller minority. I didn't think much of them either, until I got one that's pretty useful. It's just a rank 2 support, nothing overly flashy, but its been pretty darn fun for me in PvE.

    You don't need them all. You don't even need one at rank 5. Try opening your mind to the possibilities.
    I call shenanigans. Nothing wrong with letting them know we are not happy with something that could impact large portions of the playerbase.  
    Lack of availability of supports and riso impact everyone, top to bottom.  
        /|\  
          | THIS

    So, since we haven't been lucky enough to get a usable support, we should just shut up about how the chances to get them suck?

    Out if curiosity, what support did you get that is so much fun for you?  Please enlighten, in case i am honestly doing something wrong

    Wong helps strange right away, Milano gives a free CD, Quinjet lets C4rol proc her own special tile, Lucky debuffs incoming damage.  
    I have all of these, that I received when they were given away for free on release, I have 20/38 supports and I am not a  top competitive player,  I buy the daily deal from every support release vault and I once paid actual money for the Peggy bundle cuz I wanted the cover. I like supports, I see their value and as a fanboi I like the splash of flavor.
    I have been extremely lucky and have a 5* support(Corvus "VisionSlayer" Glaive) that is almost halfway at 123/250. He makes Loki much stronger and adds passive damage plus a turn 2 shuffle. sometimes.
    This is the support I use to benefit and how you can get one.
    Please try them out, you give some of the smartest analysis on the forum and we could use your insight on them beyond reluctance. They will become relevant in PvP sooner than later, should at least have an understanding of which ones become meta. Why wouldn't you want a 2*>Talon Fighter+Okoye? 

    I am doubly biased in that I am predisposed to like and am able to experience a good support.....BUT....
     Absolutely the snark against supports is totally earned. Every thread discussing them should include the litany of charges against them.
    I got 14 riso as a reward yesterday...WTTK is that?. that is total kick in the tinykitty. How long does it take to update your vaults? I don't know whats going on in Bunglemore Mountain but they need to get their lost kitties. Get the kitties. Get them all together. get their kitty together. 5X should be the starting point for re-valuation and backpaying SCL should accompany the next phase.

    but to the Stepfords in particular:
    AGAIN they release a Support via Hero For Hire Bundle without the support. A 1:27 to get a 5* and then its dilution for a chance at said support. Suckaar Arena all over again. 
    These 3 ability supports seem lacking in depth but the 5 tiered (classic) supports seem lacking in power. Just give us 5 perks at reasonable levels.
    Even with the Cuckoos : Emma still sucks. The level one perk won't help because her powers are so expensive, Second perk is ok especially with her diamond form but how much work are we needing to do to get high match dam on purple matches. And a crit multiplier is redundant at this point. high%, but still uninspired.
    And mirror above about the synergy perk being lacking from original build. Terrible development. 
    ha, flattery will get you everywhere.

    i will just paste a little snippet from a PM to someone else on this matter.

    "I would love to sing the praises of supports. I am a cheerleader for several bad ideas that get better. Look at my post history in the early days of vaulting or the first round of wins based pvp.  I could see the potential, and defended them with *facts* and numbers.  I assure you, i have an open mind, and will join the bandwagon when there is good reason to.  In the mean time, i am just not convinced by 'just wait and see'."

    Now, with that said, i feel compelled to counter one of your points.  just looking at your first example, Wong *does not* help strange right away. 

    I have Wong at rank 2, level 1.  For rank 1, i get a 5% chance to gain one (1) blue AP when i match blue.  Now, if i attach this to someone that could use blue, this mediocre chance for a tiny bit of extra blue may matter.  but both versions of Strange require 9 AP to fire their blue power.  even in the astronomically unlikely chance that on my first three matches of blue, i got the 1 extra AP *every* time, i already have the 9 AP i needed for their blue power anyways.  Just to test it, i just played a match in Sim, using JJ/DD and Thor, neither of which were at half health just to handicap myself even more.  I made a total of 14 matches in game before i had the AP stored up to win.  i think i had maybe 9 blue AP at end.  even if i had Strange on the team, this would not have helped me a bit. 

    His second rank power, an 8% chance to remove an enemy special tile whenever i fire a power, sounds better on paper, but falls apart under scrutiny.  a 1 in 12 chance, and only if they even have a special tile out on the board.  I fire a power anywhere from 3-5 times per match.  for every lengthy match where i might get 6-7 off, there are plenty i get away with 0-2.

    Lastly, his Strange specific rank, which is worded very weird.  "When Strange fires a power with a stun there's a 10% chance to increase the stun by 1 turn."   For both variants of Strange, the blue power is called Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.  that is the only way he can stun, why not just say that it happens when he fires that power?  i digress.  the point is that again, even when i do use strange, i don't fire his blue power every match.  so again, just like the other two ranks, this becomes something that happens so rare, and does so little, it may as well not even happen.

    Now, i'm sure that once you put some riso into wong, he might be better.  If i put 90k to get him to level 100, he may increase the chances or increase the rewards.   but guess what?  that is over 40% of my riso.  I would be able to do that with two (2!) of my supports, out of 18, leaving the other 16 at level one and still useless.  And that is after 4 months of hoarding riso since supports have been introduced.  I've been able to acquire three new 5* champs in roughly the same time frame.  which do you think is more effective?

    TL;DR
    Supports are a neat concept, but that's all they are, a concept, until we get the resources to utilize them.
  • jsmjsmjsm00
    jsmjsmjsm00 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker
    I've actually pulled basic support tokens on several vaults. I've opened maybe 8 total assorted vaults. I have never been happy to pull a support token. I'd rather pull a 2* to help farm.

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