What happened to 4* PVP?

Jonny1Punch

ZeroKarma said:

I agree with people that suggest having the two events separate. It seems that there is also a natural way to separate them would be with the clearance levels. 

Cl 1-6 : 3-star PvP
Cl 7-9 : 4-star PvP

It makes sense for the higher rewards to be available in the 4* events, and since the people that want 4* PvP are generally people in the 5* tier the rewards should center more around CP, while the 3* PvP focuses on 4* covers. 

I like this a lot. Brigby please go work your magic !

Tony_Foot

I didn’t like 4 star pvp anything like as much as I thought I would, I wanted it and really hated the extra health packs required so I can see why it was a turn off for new players. 

After a rethink i prefer 3 star pvp and would participate more in those.

Jaedenkaal

Cactus_Jack_87 said:

According to IceX on Discord,

"One problem is that on the 4s that 2/3 players tend to tap out quick since they usually have an "uninteresting" 4 to play with. I did."

@IceX Surely that's at least a little bit a commentary about how bad 4*s are at 1/1/1. Some abilities are flat-out disadvantages until at least 3 covers. What if PVP loaners were 3/3/3? 

658_2

Jaedenkaal said:

Cactus_Jack_87 said:

According to IceX on Discord,

"One problem is that on the 4s that 2/3 players tend to tap out quick since they usually have an "uninteresting" 4 to play with. I did."

@IceX Surely that's at least a little bit a commentary about how bad 4*s are at 1/1/1. Some abilities are flat-out disadvantages until at least 3 covers. What if PVP loaners were 3/3/3? 

Literally just posted the same exact idea on my team’s line chat.  What harm would that do?  4* pvp is so much more interesting.

BoyWonder1914

I initially was against 4-star PVP: not because I didn't have the roster for it, but because I dreaded the slog. I was NOT excited to face a mega jacked-up Iceman or Cloak & Dagger, despite having these characters champed and ready to go. Offensively it was nice having a full team of 3 characters that were packing heat instead of 2 boosted 4s and a health cushion, but that also meant FIGHTING 3 boosted 4s. While not as inherently annoying as Peggy or C4ge's PVP, Iceman could flip the entire tide of battle on you with 6 blue AP, and C&D could heal quicker than you could drop them sometimes. While it was definitely a nice change up, and you could pick on people sometimes (Scrapper 142 I was annihilating people because I was one of a select few who had a champed Valkyrie at the time), I can see how it might be a little frustrating to the less-developed rosters. 

I changed my thought process on it because it felt like a way to get certain 4s that the game might now have shown any love for a while otherwise. The featured 4-star was in packs at 20X odds I believe, which I saw as a step in the right direction for people who had difficulty acquiring certain 4s after the whole full dilution thing. I also didn't like how having a 266 3-star sometimes opened me up to hits from 5-star rosters sometimes, but that's neither here nor there. 

smkspy

Love your point of view...but still have to wonder how a 4 🌟 PvP differs anymore than a 3 🌟 PvP. There will always be players that don't have the essential at a high level just like 3 star PvP. I know my 168 loki sucks when combined with 5s and even 4s if I were at that level whenever his PvP runs.

I know ice put out the metric that lower players quit 4 🌟 PvP but does that metric also take into account that new players will simply abandon PvP because of its general broken nature? What about all the stats of vets just abandoning scl 8-9 in general or quitting in general? 

Really it shouldn't matter about the essential as mmr is based on your roster when it comes to PVP. Just look at every new 4 🌟 release PvP.

@IceIX, could you elaborate how not having a well covered essential really affects a players ability to compete in these pvps.

Jonny1Punch

Jaedenkaal said:

Cactus_Jack_87 said:

According to IceX on Discord,

"One problem is that on the 4s that 2/3 players tend to tap out quick since they usually have an "uninteresting" 4 to play with. I did."

@IceX Surely that's at least a little bit a commentary about how bad 4*s are at 1/1/1. Some abilities are flat-out disadvantages until at least 3 covers. What if PVP loaners were 3/3/3? 

This would solve that issue. A 3/3/3 loaner 4* would be way more useful and fun then most higher level 3* and help even the playing field for newer rosters. Not a bad idea however I still would like to hear from a dev on getting a hybrid choice OR allowing us to use 4* variations of existing 3*.

Also from an old school veteran player here what happened to the awesome old-school creative pvps?

Like the female character-only pvp I believe it was called “ No man’s land”? This was many years ago but I remember loving that event.

fmftint

Jonny1Punch said:

grunth13 said:

Didn't we just have a 4 star PVP with 4 star Carol?

Yeah we did a few weeks back but if you check the August preview we are back to the standard 3* pvp with the only variation being the new 4* release pvp ( 2 a season I think ).

By a few weeks back,  you really mean 5 days ago,  right?  It was literally this off season 1.5 events ago

sambrookjm

ZeroKarma said:

I was lamenting the same thing when I saw that we get Colossus, Bullseye and Quicksilver (the most annoying PvP ever) coming up. 

I'd say that She-Hulk's PvP is worse, thanks to her stupid Furious Charge.  I actually like the Quicksilver PvP; it's probably the one with the most strategy required since you need to figure out who needs to match the blue to get the AoE.  Sure, you get smacked by the occasional blue cascade...but there's some thought to his PvP that's lacking in the other matches.

smkspy

With dilution, how many 2-3 players are benefiting that much from essentials than 3 star PvP which they would need if it were a 4 star instead? The loaner is there for a reason.

Seems the reasoning is that @IceIX just gave us cause his roster isn't that great and he got bored so he quit the PvP.

IceIX

The problem with specialist Versus events during seasons is that there's a greater chance of a given player not having the roster depth to take advantage of them. It's one thing to have to use a loaner for one position, it's another to be in No Man's Land without developed enough characters to take part even if you could battle normally at the 3-star tier. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3. Running specialty events during a time where you're trying to compete for high placement doesn't feel great when a certain event means you just can't run it. I can't say that that situation will never change, but it's a large part of our thinking for how Versus seasons play out at current.

For the 3/3/3 loaners, I'll bring it up but obviously can't make any promises.

Vins2

Rockwell75 said:

The thing is PVP isn't really viable for anyone until they're at least partly established in 4* territory and it's kind of a kick in the pants to realize that after you've spent so long busting your tinykitty and enduring the 7 levels of Marvel hell to get to 4 land you're still stuck using 3* characters.  Having a game mode like PVP that becomes open to players once they're more established in the game is a pretty good incentive to work towards becoming established in the game...

I've not been in 3* land for almost2 years but would think pvp is viable for a solely 3* player if their goal was to reach 4k for the season or making 575 in an event.  If they overlevel their half covered 4s and bring themselves out of 3* MMR then thats a different story.  

Rockwell75

Vins2 said:

Rockwell75 said:

The thing is PVP isn't really viable for anyone until they're at least partly established in 4* territory and it's kind of a kick in the pants to realize that after you've spent so long busting your tinykitty and enduring the 7 levels of Marvel hell to get to 4 land you're still stuck using 3* characters.  Having a game mode like PVP that becomes open to players once they're more established in the game is a pretty good incentive to work towards becoming established in the game...

I've not been in 3* land for almost2 years but would think pvp is viable for a solely 3* player if their goal was to reach 4k for the season or making 575 in an event.  If they overlevel their half covered 4s and bring themselves out of 3* MMR then thats a different story.  

By "really viable" I meant getting most of the progression rewards (ie., hitting 900) and having a shot at decent (but not necessarily top) placement.  Hitting 575 is the bare minimum and is easily doable in 3 land however I would argue that it would be no less doable for a 3 star player using a loaner in 4* PVP.

SolidQ

IceIX said:

. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3.

We are already give to you solution(clearance levels), look at above 

The rockett

IceIX said:

The problem with specialist Versus events during seasons is that there's a greater chance of a given player not having the roster depth to take advantage of them. It's one thing to have to use a loaner for one position, it's another to be in No Man's Land without developed enough characters to take part even if you could battle normally at the 3-star tier. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3. Running specialty events during a time where you're trying to compete for high placement doesn't feel great when a certain event means you just can't run it. I can't say that that situation will never change, but it's a large part of our thinking for how Versus seasons play out at current.

For the 3/3/3 loaners, I'll bring it up but obviously can't make any promises.

Ok. That makes sense but why should we even care about trying to grow our 4* if you do not promote them or have us use them.  It is extermaly frustrating to see some of the first champed 4* sit and do nothing.  HB was the king of his time and still darn good but how would we know?  It is just boring to use the same 3* that we have been using for 1500+ Days with the same gosh darn events.  

ZeroKarma

The rockett said:

IceIX said:

The problem with specialist Versus events during seasons is that there's a greater chance of a given player not having the roster depth to take advantage of them. It's one thing to have to use a loaner for one position, it's another to be in No Man's Land without developed enough characters to take part even if you could battle normally at the 3-star tier. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3. Running specialty events during a time where you're trying to compete for high placement doesn't feel great when a certain event means you just can't run it. I can't say that that situation will never change, but it's a large part of our thinking for how Versus seasons play out at current.

For the 3/3/3 loaners, I'll bring it up but obviously can't make any promises.

Ok. That makes sense but why should we even care about trying to grow our 4* if you do not promote them or have us use them.  It is extermaly frustrating to see some of the first champed 4* sit and do nothing.  HB was the king of his time and still darn good but how would we know?  It is just boring to use the same 3* that we have been using for 1500+ Days with the same gosh darn events.  

Exactly the same argument I had earlier today. Sure, the nerfing of Gambit has really opened PvP up for the use of boosted 4*, but I feel like this is a game of two tiers, 3* and 5*. 

You need the 3* for PvP since they always come around as essentials paperweights, and you win the matches with your 5’s. Maybe if you have good boosted 4* you can use them (until you need to shield hop of course) but they should be max champed or close to have a place.

But otherwise? Champ rewards and that’s it. Seems like an awfully big waste of the “most diverse tier in the game.”

Oh, and they feed 5*, sometimes, maybe. 

The rockett

ZeroKarma said:

You need the 3* for PvP since they always come around as essentials paperweights, and you win the matches with your 5’s. Maybe if you have good boosted 4* you can use them (until you need to shield hop of course) but they should be max champed or close t
But otherwise? Champ rewards and that’s it. Seems like an awfully big waste of the “most diverse tier in the game.”

Oh, and they feed 5*, sometimes, maybe. 

And a waste of our time.  Why should be try and so hard and invest so much time and money into this if we never use them.  Idk why we care so much to invest so much time into this.  Seems like we are screaming into a black hole.  Doesn’t matter anymore. 

Bowgentle

IceIX said:

The problem with specialist Versus events during seasons is that there's a greater chance of a given player not having the roster depth to take advantage of them. It's one thing to have to use a loaner for one position, it's another to be in No Man's Land without developed enough characters to take part even if you could battle normally at the 3-star tier. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3. Running specialty events during a time where you're trying to compete for high placement doesn't feel great when a certain event means you just can't run it. I can't say that that situation will never change, but it's a large part of our thinking for how Versus seasons play out at current.

For the 3/3/3 loaners, I'll bring it up but obviously can't make any promises.

Come now.
By that same logic you need to remove the required 4* node from PVE because some poor player might not have them in a good enough state.

MMR takes care of you if you are running a loaner because you don't have the character champed.
People without a champed featured shouldn't compete for placement, in the event or season.

jamesh

ZeroKarma said:

I agree with people that suggest having the two events separate. It seems that there is also a natural way to separate them would be with the clearance levels. 

Cl 1-6 : 3-star PvP
Cl 7-9 : 4-star PvP

It makes sense for the higher rewards to be available in the 4* events, and since the people that want 4* PvP are generally people in the 5* tier the rewards should center more around CP, while the 3* PvP focuses on 4* covers. 

The main problem with this is that it's only CL7-9 that offer a 4* cover in progression.  With this proposed change, the message would be that you need a well covered 4* essential in order to gain more 4* covers.  Maybe if the 4* progression cover was also available at the lower levels it could work?

With that said, I still don't quite understand why we even have clearance levels for PVP.  It makes zero difference to the enemy teams you fight: just what rewards you get for completing those same fights.  And with top players spreading themselves over CL 7-9, the top placement rewards are usually all locked down.

So if you were going to have parallel 3*/4* PVP, why not have a single rewards schedule for each?

Jonny1Punch

Bowgentle said:

IceIX said:

The problem with specialist Versus events during seasons is that there's a greater chance of a given player not having the roster depth to take advantage of them. It's one thing to have to use a loaner for one position, it's another to be in No Man's Land without developed enough characters to take part even if you could battle normally at the 3-star tier. Remember, while there are quite a few players living in full 4-star and 5-star land, there are legions more building their rosters through 2 and 3. Running specialty events during a time where you're trying to compete for high placement doesn't feel great when a certain event means you just can't run it. I can't say that that situation will never change, but it's a large part of our thinking for how Versus seasons play out at current.

For the 3/3/3 loaners, I'll bring it up but obviously can't make any promises.

Come now.
By that same logic you need to remove the required 4* node from PVE because some poor player might not have them in a good enough state.

MMR takes care of you if you are running a loaner because you don't have the character champed.
People without a champed featured shouldn't compete for placement, in the event or season.

Sorry IceIX but not quite buying the logic here. To mirror Bowgentles statement I will also take it a step further:

The goal is to cater to legions of 2-3* players and having a featured 4* pvp is deemed unfair to them even though providing a loaner guarantees they can participate...

Yet having the 4* and 5* required essential nodes in pve along with DDQ crash of the titans / behemoth burrito are ok & fair for those without “ roster depth”? Those events require not just that particular 4/5* to enter but sometimes require you to have them leveled up relatively well to succeed. No loaners are provided for any of those so I’m failing to see why pvp is getting singled out and held back by staying in the same stagnant 3* state it’s been for YEARS but it’s ok everywhere else to be more evolved & move forward? Time for a change. Season mode has been nerfed for way too long by refusing to move forward with the times particularly in PVP.