Tragic Arrogance (I know, who the heck plays this?) [Fix in 3.2]

Gun Bunny

My opponent has a Curator of Mysteries and Gaea's revenge in play, I have Evra, halcyon witness in play. I cast TA, select Evra, and the Curator (GR isn't targetable) and GR...is still there. I get a second tragic arrogance in hand, and a second creature on the board, select Evra and the Curator again, and my second creature dies but not GR.

Given that the wording on this card has no mention of the word 'target' anywhere, I have to ask if this is a bug, or if the card is working as intended, but worded improperly.

@Brigby

//Edited Title -Brigby

Mburn7

That sounds like a bug.  Prevent damage will stop a creature from being destroyed by Tragic Arrogance (an artifact of how the game worked when the card was made), but Hexproof should not.

Gun Bunny

Technically speaking, prevent damage shouldn't either, but I haven't run into that yet..

Also technically speaking, you should be able to choose a hexproof as well; the paper version doesn't specify targets either, since you're explicitly choosing what *not* to affect.

Mburn7

Gun Bunny said:

Also technically speaking, you should be able to choose a hexproof as well; the paper version doesn't specify targets either, since you're explicitly choosing what *not* to affect.

That's wrong.  Hexproom means cannot be targeted, period.  Since the card requires you to target the survivor, you cannot target an opponent's hexproof creature.  Its kind of funny that Hexproof is a detriment there, but that's how it works.

Elektrophorus

Mburn7 said:

Gun Bunny said:

Also technically speaking, you should be able to choose a hexproof as well; the paper version doesn't specify targets either, since you're explicitly choosing what *not* to affect.

That's wrong.  Hexproom means cannot be targeted, period.  Since the card requires you to target the survivor, you cannot target an opponent's hexproof creature.  Its kind of funny that Hexproof is a detriment there, but that's how it works.

Gun Bunny meant that, in paper MTG, Tragic Arrogance is a card that bypasses hexproof because it does not require targets to cast. It uses the wording “choose”, but does not explicitly target.

You may view the card here: https://scryfall.com/card/ori/38

Mburn7

Elektrophorus said:

Mburn7 said:

Gun Bunny said:

Also technically speaking, you should be able to choose a hexproof as well; the paper version doesn't specify targets either, since you're explicitly choosing what *not* to affect.

That's wrong.  Hexproom means cannot be targeted, period.  Since the card requires you to target the survivor, you cannot target an opponent's hexproof creature.  Its kind of funny that Hexproof is a detriment there, but that's how it works.

Gun Bunny meant that, in paper MTG, Tragic Arrogance is a card that bypasses hexproof because it does not require targets to cast. It uses the wording “choose”, but does not explicitly target.

You may view the card here: https://scryfall.com/card/ori/38

Are "choose" and "target" treated as different things in paper?  I've never heard that before, although to be fair I don't think that has ever come up in a game I played.

Elektrophorus

Mburn7 said:

Elektrophorus said:

Mburn7 said:

Gun Bunny said:

Also technically speaking, you should be able to choose a hexproof as well; the paper version doesn't specify targets either, since you're explicitly choosing what *not* to affect.

That's wrong.  Hexproom means cannot be targeted, period.  Since the card requires you to target the survivor, you cannot target an opponent's hexproof creature.  Its kind of funny that Hexproof is a detriment there, but that's how it works.

Gun Bunny meant that, in paper MTG, Tragic Arrogance is a card that bypasses hexproof because it does not require targets to cast. It uses the wording “choose”, but does not explicitly target.

You may view the card here: https://scryfall.com/card/ori/38

Are "choose" and "target" treated as different things in paper?  I've never heard that before, although to be fair I don't think that has ever come up in a game I played.

Yes. "Choose" just simply means you select a card on resolution of the spell. "Target" (and "choose a target", as on Ashling, https://scryfall.com/card/eve/33) means you declare the "targets" of the spell as you are casting it, before it resolves. This means that your opponent doesn't get to know which creatures you "choose" until after they pass priority. They cannot change their mind once you tell them what you choose.

For example, Expriopriate (https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30) has an effect that "chooses" a creature as part of the effect. By the time you reveal your choices, it is already too late to cast a Counterspell or activate an effect that would sacrifice the creature you chose. In the rules notes, you can also see: "Expropriate doesn’t target any of the permanents you gain control of. You could choose a permanent with hexproof, for example. (Hey, money talks.)"

On the other hand, if you target something with, say, Murder ("Destroy target creature."), they can sacrifice that creature before your spell occurs, and it will fizzle. This is important because if all of a spell's targets are gone, the spell will be countered, even if it has other effects that can happen. The card Hex (https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/87) has six targets, and will be countered if all six creatures are gone (but will still happen if any of the six are there during resolution). On the other hand, if you cast Sorin's Thirst (https://scryfall.com/card/ddk/21) targeting a creature, and that creature is sacrificed before resolution, the whole spell is countered and you do not gain 2 life.

techmarine5

I would like to add that the bug is a situational bug(if it still exists), since I played it in tlcd, and was able to destroy a minion with hexproof multiple times.

P.S. I play it.

Zzyzzx

I think the dev team has been tinkering with this because my recent experience with Tragic Arrogance during one of the last 2 Historical PVE events.
One of the nodes required either a "Kill X or More" or a "Lose X or More" creatures and I usually run TA in a Huatli II build to make that objective.
Twice during the match I'd cast Tragic Arrogance with 2 or more creatures on either side and it did jack squat.
I should've taken a battle log snapshot but I did not.
I might try to recreate it again in story mode.

Edit: Confirmed.  It was node 2 in The Phyrexian Compleation.  I didn't have to bother with Story Mode.
Here's the battle log for what it's worth.
I had 1 creature (a token soldier) and she had 3.
Casting Tragic Arrogance should have killed the other 2 (neither were hexproof but one was disabled).
It didn't and there's nothing registered in the log other than that I cast it.
The only difference was that this time I cast it with Elspeth...which shouldn't matter in the slightest.

hawkyh1

I can cast it but it does nothing after creature selection.
rto white node.

HH

GregDreher

I put the card into a deck recently, and it destroyed no creatures when cast.  It's clearly bugged now.

Magic:PQ Support Team

Hi everyone! 

We are aware and the team will take a look. 
Thanks for report! 

luka1776

I just tied to use Tragic Arrogance and the bug is still there. I'm in no hurry to have it repaired just thought that I'd let people know that the problem is still there

ManiiNames

TA still broken, will not ‘destroy’ creatures with prevent damage.  

Steps to duplicate:
- You have at least one creature
- Opponent has at least two creatures, one of which has prevent damage (plant works good)
- Cast TA, Target your creature and opposing creature that does n have prevent damage
- Opposing PD creature (plant etc) should die but does not

Brigby

Hi Everyone. This should be fixed in the upcoming 3.2 build.

Lolllee2nd

I know this is an old post, but I need clarification action on Tragic Arrogance and destroying creatures with hexproof. My understanding was hexproof creatures can't be "targeted" by a spell. Tragic Arrogrance doesn't "target" other creatures not chosen, so shouldn't it destroy all creatures not picked even if they have hexproof?