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Naru Meha NERF ! (Part 2)

Mark_TedinMark_Tedin Posts: 135 Tile Toppler
edited October 2 in MtGPQ General Discussion
After the lotus nerfed, we have another nerf trauma. I spent more than 2,000 jewels (and many dupes) to get naru, so now I have a mythic nerfed. This is not fair with us. Naru was a good option against 400 HP bosses and many decks were based on this strategy. If there was a bug, you should fix the AI ​​but do not nerfed a mythic card. In addition to nerf, the original paper text  was changed. I'm really very sad about the game. I believe that oktagon can solve this problem in another way without harming customers.

Naru Meha Master Wizard
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Comments

  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 1,735 Chairperson of the Boards
    First of all, what was changed?  The patch notes just said "no longer goes infinite" but didn't explain how it changed to accomplish that.

    Depending on the change, what is the issue?  That you no longer have an infinite combo with a common?  I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing or unprecedented, since all other infinite combos that have come out were nerfed pretty quickly as well (Harness the Storm, Season's Past, Baral...ect)
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 1,735 Chairperson of the Boards
    James13 said:
    She changed from ETB to on cast trigger.  Meaning she will never trigger if placed on the battlefield by effects.  This ends the Ruse combo, but also renders her much more limited (cannot trigger off a number of move to the battlefield effects that she could before such as Believe, Gift of the god pharaoh, flash, etc).
    Ok, that's not bad.  Pretty nifty solution without destroying her functionality.

    So what exactly is the issue?  She isn't even an exclusive card, so there can't even be a bait-and-switch argument like there was for Lotus.  They just fixed a busted interaction while keeping the card the same 95% of the time.  Seems good to me.
  • bken1234bken1234 Posts: 2,399GLOBAL_MODERATORS Chairperson of the Boards
    I think it’s a fair nerf — it meets their criteria and solves a problem. 
  • BlazerBlazer Posts: 84 Match Maker
    The HUF, Karn's Temporal Sundering combo still works.
  • James13James13 Posts: 522 Critical Contributor
    Also note: she won't combo as I had hoped with Oath of Teferi now.
  • boopersboopers Posts: 92 Match Maker

    After the lotus nerfed, we have another nerf trauma. I spent more than 2,000 jewels (and many dupes) to get naru, so now I have a mythic nerfed. This is not fair with us. Naru was a good option against 400 HP bosses and many decks were based on this strategy. If there was a bug, you should fix the AI ​​but do not nerfed a mythic card. In addition to nerf, the original paper text  was changed. I'm really very sad about the game. I believe that oktagon can solve this problem in another way without harming customers.

    The change was appropriate to solve a problem where running into this combo by the AI simply forced the player to quit and lose.  That possibility isn't acceptable. 

    I also refuse to believe that Oktagon intended for this card to perpetuate since they have done a really good job at minimizing easy perpetual loop combos with each set they release.  

    No, you don't get to create decks that cause the opponent to auto-lose in one turn. Oktagon has been pretty clear about their intention to not allow that to occur in future sets since they took over.  Even hibernum changed Baral because of this situation... precedent is clear on this topic.

    Do you have a fairer idea than what was done?  Bring a solution if you want to call out a problem.
  • FroggyFroggy Posts: 417 Mover and Shaker
    Having just gotten her through crafting, I can’t say the nerf made her any less useful for what I intended. She is still fully abusable and severely powerful. So I’m happy with her either way. Cheers!
  • babar3355babar3355 Posts: 1,120 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well, we should agree that she was nerfed pretty hard.  But again, she never should have been able to create infinite loops with a single card in Siren's Ruse.  Naru and Ruse could be paired with loads of standard cards to create an infinite and automatic win condition.  Imminent Doom, Firebrand Archer, Adeliz to name a few of the standard legal combo cards.

    More annoyingly, the AI would start the loop and it would never end.  That is clearly bad for the game.

    It is odd to me that people aren't coming up with other interesting ways to use her besides infinite loops.   She is still a very powerful card. For instance, using her to fill a free Hour of Promise will turn 1 into 2, that will do a much better job of emptying your hand and is exceptionally good. But no completely broken like with Ruse.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 1,735 Chairperson of the Boards
    babar3355 said:

    It is odd to me that people aren't coming up with other interesting ways to use her besides infinite loops.   She is still a very powerful card. For instance, using her to fill a free Hour of Promise will turn 1 into 2, that will do a much better job of emptying your hand and is exceptionally good. But no completely broken like with Ruse.
    I agree.  I didn't even realize she would combo with Ruse until I saw it here (I don't even remember getting Ruse or ever using it), and even then I didn't bother since without Doom its a super slow and boring win.

    I just use her with big spells I want to cast for free, of which there are plenty, and funky wizard combos (Her, Naban, and Jodah is a really fun, if not super competitive Friends of Tolaria deck)

    This is a good nerf.  Lets not complain too much, shall we?
  • James13James13 Posts: 522 Critical Contributor
    I have used her in ways outside of ruse.  I can be a little annoyed that the ways I noted using her above in thread are no longer possible.  It's limited creative deckbuilding with her.

    For all the complaints about ruse I never once ran into a player doing it.  I'm miffed that I can't use her as I have been.  And here's still an unaddressed standard format infinite with her yet that I won't bother to mention here.
  • DumasAGDumasAG Posts: 646 Critical Contributor
    I've run into the combo once, but it did cost me a game in an event, so that was a bummer. Literally just pulled her out of an elite pack. Wasn't super impressed with her, but I'm also not really disappointed. I'll play her with other wizards, possibly in Tezz2 or Bolas to get more Doomfalls
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 1,735 Chairperson of the Boards
    James13 said:
    I have used her in ways outside of ruse.  I can be a little annoyed that the ways I noted using her above in thread are no longer possible.  It's limited creative deckbuilding with her.

    For all the complaints about ruse I never once ran into a player doing it.  I'm miffed that I can't use her as I have been.  And here's still an unaddressed standard format infinite with her yet that I won't bother to mention here.
    Limited creativity?  I'd say it does the opposite.  Having an infinite combo means it tends to show up in pretty much every deck, since it is literally impossible to come up with a more efficient one.  Having an infinite combo with 2 cards, one of which is a common, means every blue deck (in this case) will be running those 2 cards along with a win condition (ok fine, so 3 cards).  That is the opposite of creative.

    I'm sorry you lost your easy win button.  That sucks.  I remember when they nerfed Undergrowth Champion and my green decks started losing.  Or when they nerfed Season's Past and Harness the Storm and made us actually have to figure out how to abuse them instead of making it super easy (season's past didn't even need another card!).  Infinite combos are very, very, very bad for the game.  They should not exist.  Naru losing hers while keeping 90% of her functionality is perfectly acceptable.
  • James13James13 Posts: 522 Critical Contributor
    edited July 12
    Mburn7 said:
    James13 said:
    I have used her in ways outside of ruse.  I can be a little annoyed that the ways I noted using her above in thread are no longer possible.  It's limited creative deckbuilding with her.

    For all the complaints about ruse I never once ran into a player doing it.  I'm miffed that I can't use her as I have been.  And here's still an unaddressed standard format infinite with her yet that I won't bother to mention here.
    Limited creativity?  I'd say it does the opposite.  Having an infinite combo means it tends to show up in pretty much every deck, since it is literally impossible to come up with a more efficient one.  Having an infinite combo with 2 cards, one of which is a common, means every blue deck (in this case) will be running those 2 cards along with a win condition (ok fine, so 3 cards).  That is the opposite of creative.

    I'm sorry you lost your easy win button.  That sucks.  I remember when they nerfed Undergrowth Champion and my green decks started losing.  Or when they nerfed Season's Past and Harness the Storm and made us actually have to figure out how to abuse them instead of making it super easy (season's past didn't even need another card!).  Infinite combos are very, very, very bad for the game.  They should not exist.  Naru losing hers while keeping 90% of her functionality is perfectly acceptable.
    Thanks for utterly ignoring my comment then accusing me of running a lazy infinite. 

    Let me reiterate clearer.

    1) If the goal was preventing two cards infinites entirely it's actually already failed.  There's another standard two card infinite even with the rework.

    2) The change eliminates non-infinite general usages.

    Later Edit: just to be clear.  The solution I would have preferred to see is a minor change to ruse functionality where it returns a blinked creature at the end of turn. That would have solved people's issues without eliminating any of Naru Mehas functions and flexibility.
  • BrigbyBrigby Posts: 5,721ADMINISTRATORS Site Admin
    *I can tell that tensions are starting to run a bit high, so I just wanted to remind everyone to keep all comments civil and constructive. Thank you!
  • tfg76tfg76 Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    I don't think infinite combos are a problem in the game. They are only a problem because the AI will "win" with any infinite combo, even if that combo doesn't actually lead to victory. Solving the latter problem seems like a much better fix than trying to avoid infinite altogether. Building combo decks is fun!
  • tfg76tfg76 Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    (for instance, one could imagine that the AI was only allowed to play 100 cards per turn, and would auto-yield after that).
  • Mark_TedinMark_Tedin Posts: 135 Tile Toppler
    The problem is not the combo. Combo has always existed and will always exist in MTG, even if you do not like it. The problem is how they solved the AI ​​BUG problem. They nerfed one of the best mythic card of the set and their interactions (yes, I played naru with Flash - the Masterpiece - and now I had to remove both of them from the deck.This is a huge loss). 

    One solution would be to prevent AI from playing siren's ruse in naru. So it fixes the bug without harming the players!

    -To illustrate a lost interaction (there are several others):
    Flash->Naru Meha Master Wizard
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 1,735 Chairperson of the Boards
    The problem is not the combo. Combo has always existed and will always exist in MTG, even if you do not like it. The problem is how they solved the AI ​​BUG problem. They nerfed one of the best mythic card of the set and their interactions (yes, I played naru with Flash - the Masterpiece - and now I had to remove both of them from the deck.This is a huge loss). 

    One solution would be to prevent AI from playing siren's ruse in naru. So it fixes the bug without harming the players!

    The thing is, it wasn't an AI bug.  The AI was playing the cards perfectly legitimately, and their interaction was totally legal.  The issue was the fact that the combo created an infinite loop.  Oktagon has repeatedly said that they do not want infinite loops in the game.  They didn't make the change because the AI was using it, they made it because it was possible in the first place.

    And Naru is still a really really good mythic.  The change only messes with a small handful of cards in standard (Reason//Believe, Flash, Oath of Teferi, and Siren's Ruse are the only ones I can think of).  Her effect is still really powerful on cast.  I'm sorry you lost your cool combo, but there are other cool combos to find, don't worry.
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