Vivien Reid in MtGPQ?

babar3355

wereotter said:

Planeswalkers more than any other thing in the game need to be balanced around each other. You can’t have playing one be an easy “I win” button because your opponent is in the wrong color. This is ESPECIALLY true for within color. Imagine across Ixalan where everyone is using Vivian and it either stalemates because both players get their emblems back to back, or just whoever gets it first wins. The very fact that color locked events exist means at the very least, green needs to be able to effectively deal with another green planeswalker ability. 

You made up an extreme scenario where 2 players are playing Vivien with hexproof creatures and some way to give them reach/blocking/vigilance.  You also have to assume that neither player is running The Great Aurora, Appeal to Authority or any of the available support destruction spells/creatures.  You then have to assume that neither one is running sufficient mana converters to cause the green support gem to get destroyed.  You also have to assume Greg will actually cast his ultimate.  Also, the player didn't bother to sideboard any of the above spells despite knowing they were about to play a mirror match.

My question to these 2 brain dead Vivien player would be....  How were you planning on dealing with a Karn construct with reach?  Or Hixus?  Or a Nyx/Stw lock...? or any of the thousands of scenarios that these terrible players couldn't deal with, using their horribly designed deck?

The reality is G does not have great answers to creatures.  Black does not have great answers for supports.  All colors have some weakness.  That is one of the defining characteristics of MTG and MTGPQ... And again, I don't think you guys are thinking this through if you really think that ult would be massively meta-warping and OP.

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

Most of your suggestions are at Rare and Mythic and quite expensive to cast, or are only partial solutions (non-Hixus disable supports, perilous voyage...ect).  And the general wipe ones are rather expensive to cast, so you are most likely going to lose all your creatures before you can recover.  
And most of your solutions are blue and white, hence the 1-2 color comment

So sure, you can deal with it, but having all your opponents creatures permanently (or semi-permanently) turn into an unhurtable wall (most likely with a buff as well) is probably going to hurt you a lot, if not outright lose you the game.  

Just confused why you guys think this would be insanely OP... beyond the ideas I threw out and the dozens of other options available, you can simply destroy the support token...  I mean come on.

The issue here is with blocking and prevent damage.  As Runaway Carriage taught us, that is a very dangerous combination.  It was decided that that combination of abilities should not be possible on a permanent basis without extra hoops to jump through (see Amonkhet gods, for reference).  It is seeing that which is leading us to believe the ability will be too powerful.  

Yes, there are more ways to deal with that now than there were back in Innistrad, but making an ability that copies one of the most overpowered and broken cards ever is probably still a bad idea.

babar3355

Mburn7 said:

The issue here is with blocking and prevent damage.  As Runaway Carriage taught us, that is a very dangerous combination.  It was decided that that combination of abilities should not be possible on a permanent basis without extra hoops to jump through (see Amonkhet gods, for reference).  It is seeing that which is leading us to believe the ability will be too powerful.  

Yes, there are more ways to deal with that now than there were back in Innistrad, but making an ability that copies one of the most overpowered and broken cards ever is probably still a bad idea.

Runaway Carriage was a problem because you couldn't target the card and there was very little non-targeted control at that time. It was a problem in the SR events where RC was running rampant and the dev's gave us an SR deck with no ability to deal with RC... meaning if you run into one, you instantly lose the match... and lose out on the exclusive PW. (I think this scared them away from pre-fab decks in the future, which I wish they would do more of).

I was actually in the camp where I thought the gods should actually be indestructible like in paper, rather than having prevent damage (ie, they would even be immune to destroy spells like in their original bugged form.)  Removing that feature made most of them largely unplayable.

Regardless, you guys aren't making a very convincing argument for why Vivien's ult would be OP. If you are looking for indestructible blockers, look no further than Karn's 15 mana ult with any number of blocking options.  If you say "he isn't hexproof" I will respond "neither is your support token".

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

The issue here is with blocking and prevent damage.  As Runaway Carriage taught us, that is a very dangerous combination.  It was decided that that combination of abilities should not be possible on a permanent basis without extra hoops to jump through (see Amonkhet gods, for reference).  It is seeing that which is leading us to believe the ability will be too powerful.  

Yes, there are more ways to deal with that now than there were back in Innistrad, but making an ability that copies one of the most overpowered and broken cards ever is probably still a bad idea.

Regardless, you guys aren't making a very convincing argument for why Vivien's ult would be OP. If you are looking for indestructible blockers, look no further than Karn's 15 mana ult with any number of blocking options.  If you say "he isn't hexproof" I will respond "neither is your support token".

Ok, lets use Karn's as comparison.  He creates 1 big creature that you need to combine with supports on the field (otherwise it doesn't have prevent damage) and you need a spell that gives him reach/defender (which you probably wouldn't be running anyway).  If the creature token dies, you need to get up to 15 loyalty again and re-cast the spell.

If Vivien's ult works as an emblem, then it instantly makes every creature you have on the field a wall, including any you cast later if they get removed.  You don't have to jump through any extra hoops, you don't need to add specific cards to your deck, and any creature removal doesn't remove the effect from the field, so the next creature you get comes in with the bonus.  And it is much harder to remove a support than a creature (since support removal is non-targeted).

Vivien's is clearly significantly more powerful than Karn's in terms of creating a wall (Karn's is still great for its other abilities).  That doesn't necessarily mean that she should be nerfed (in this completely hypothetical situation, remember), but it means that it isn't fair to say she shouldn't be nerfed because of Karn.

babar3355

I agree it would be a strong skill.  I just don't think it is over the top overpowered.  As @ZW2007- mentioned, it wouldnt be nearly as devastating as Tefari's ult in most situations.

ZW2007-

Mburn7 said:

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

The issue here is with blocking and prevent damage.  As Runaway Carriage taught us, that is a very dangerous combination.  It was decided that that combination of abilities should not be possible on a permanent basis without extra hoops to jump through (see Amonkhet gods, for reference).  It is seeing that which is leading us to believe the ability will be too powerful.  

Yes, there are more ways to deal with that now than there were back in Innistrad, but making an ability that copies one of the most overpowered and broken cards ever is probably still a bad idea.

Regardless, you guys aren't making a very convincing argument for why Vivien's ult would be OP. If you are looking for indestructible blockers, look no further than Karn's 15 mana ult with any number of blocking options.  If you say "he isn't hexproof" I will respond "neither is your support token".

Ok, lets use Karn's as comparison.  He creates 1 big creature that you need to combine with supports on the field (otherwise it doesn't have prevent damage) and you need a spell that gives him reach/defender (which you probably wouldn't be running anyway).  If the creature token dies, you need to get up to 15 loyalty again and re-cast the spell.

If Vivien's ult works as an emblem, then it instantly makes every creature you have on the field a wall, including any you cast later if they get removed.  You don't have to jump through any extra hoops, you don't need to add specific cards to your deck, and any creature removal doesn't remove the effect from the field, so the next creature you get comes in with the bonus.  And it is much harder to remove a support than a creature (since support removal is non-targeted).

Vivien's is clearly significantly more powerful than Karn's in terms of creating a wall (Karn's is still great for its other abilities).  That doesn't necessarily mean that she should be nerfed (in this completely hypothetical situation, remember), but it means that it isn't fair to say she shouldn't be nerfed because of Karn.

Your example says that Karn requires other supports on the field to make him have prevent damage and you make it sound like that is a difficult scenario but you assume that Vivien will always have multiple creatures in play when she uses her ult and that is an easy scenario.

If she already has creatures that you aren't dealing with by the time she ults, you already had yourself in a bad/precarious situation. You shouldn't need a field wipe to handle a board full of supports and creatures in most situations. You are either already dealing with her creatures and supports as they come or you aren't. If you aren't, then there is a flaw in your deck in the first place. You can't run an all creature Koth deck and expect to never get shut down by some strategies. Likewise you can't go into a fight against Vivien with her proposed ult and not be prepared to deal with the possibility that she will cast creatures and use her ult.

Honestly, even if she had that ult, I probably wouldn't use it as often as I would use her first and second. I do think she would make a very strong mono-green walker with that ult and a very mediocre/borderline useless mono-color walker without it.

Brigby

*I can sense tensions getting a bit heated in this conversation, so I just want to give everyone a friendly reminder to keep all comments civil and not to attack other players. Thanks!

HarryMason

I think it's perfectly fine for a pw ult to potentially swing the game if you can't answer it .That's kind of the point. A lot of them put you in a world of hurt. You've also got ults like elspeth that you have to build for, but many are win cons in their own right. Ob will kill ya . So will angrath , tezz 1 or 2, c2 will if you're playing energy. Most of them provide a substantial swing to the game . Giving Vivien an effect like avacyn wouldn't be too terrible. It could wreck your plans, but that's fine. It's a strategy game. Sometimes you have to regroup . It'll teach peeps not to overextend 

Matthew

wereotter said:

Imagine across Ixalan where everyone is using Vivian and it either stalemates because both players get their emblems back to back, or just whoever gets it first wins. 

Seriously? A stalemate? If that happens, then whoever that living, breathing person is in that stalemate was destined to lose before starting the match in the first place simply because of their poor deck design. Poor deck design naturally begets and deserves more losses than good design. Call me callous if you want; I see it as cold logic. Further, overcoming such a shortcoming is not the responsibility of the developing team. It's a lesson that the individual player needs to learn on their own over time. I've lost plenty of matches in my time playing this game, but what's important is that I have learned from my mistakes. Every single other player needs to learn that lesson as well.

Back to your original argument, let's talk about mono-green Hexproof threats in the Standard meta once HoD drops off and Core '19 appears. There are a whopping 6 of them:

Current Cards:
- Gaea's Revenge (M)
- Carnage Tyrant (M)
- Shanna, Sisay's Legacy (U)
- Jade Guardian (C)
- Blue Merfolk Token (C; this one is generated by the Common Jungleborn Pioneer creature)

Cards we can reasonably expect:
- Vine Mare (Paper lists it as Uncommon, but I'd wager a few bucks that the Mare cycle will get promoted to Rare for their PQ versions)

Mburn and wereotter, you both mentioned that there was a problem with the logic from babar and zw2007 because of the rarity of the solutions they offered. I would counter that your own arguments suffer from similarly flawed logic. The two Mythics are going to be far less common than the rest of them. The other three we have right now are not even close to the same level of threat as the two Mythics I've listed. As for Vine Mare, sure, the jury is still out on its rarity, but even at the Uncommon level it will more than likely be a manageable threat at worst. 

And finally, let's talk about mono-colored PWs. As I'm sure you're aware, mono PWs are naturally handicapped in PQ because of the limitations the game places upon deckbuilding, while paper is the polar opposite. The majority of the monos are just not worth fielding in a live event unless you've got a gigantic collection. Even at that point, you're probably better off running a Blue/Whatever PW because you've almost certainly got Storm the Vault and/or River's Rebuke. So to my mind, running one of the weaker standalone colors in a competitive setting is to play with an intentional handicap.

I wish my good buddy Steven could weigh in on this topic. I'd love to hear what he has to say, and for others to be able to hear it as well. Unfortunately, the dictatorial "if we don't talk about it, it didn't happen" rules here render his opinion about as important as that of a Tank Man.

wereotter

HarryMason said:

I think it's perfectly fine for a pw ult to potentially swing the game if you can't answer it .That's kind of the point. A lot of them put you in a world of hurt. You've also got ults like elspeth that you have to build for, but many are win cons in their own right. Ob will kill ya . So will angrath , tezz 1 or 2, c2 will if you're playing energy. Most of them provide a substantial swing to the game . Giving Vivien an effect like avacyn wouldn't be too terrible. It could wreck your plans, but that's fine. It's a strategy game. Sometimes you have to regroup . It'll teach peeps not to overextend 

Their ultimates can kill you given enough time, but they act more like an enrage timer than a push here to win timer.

You can still kill any of those planeswalkers after they ultimate without destroying their support before they kill you. If Vivien acts as some have proposed, you have little chance without getting lucky on your support removal as her wall of creatures that can’t take damage will make her impervious to damage that isn’t direct burn or maybe fliers.

That alone will set you so far back that a win becomes difficult to impossible against her. The only saving grace being Greg rarely ultimates planeswalkers he plays. 

babar3355

wereotter said:

Their ultimates can kill you given enough time, but they act more like an enrage timer than a push here to win timer.

You can still kill any of those planeswalkers after they ultimate without destroying their support before they kill you. If Vivien acts as some have proposed, you have little chance without getting lucky on your support removal as her wall of creatures that can’t take damage will make her impervious to damage that isn’t direct burn or maybe fliers.

That alone will set you so far back that a win becomes difficult to impossible against her. The only saving grace being Greg rarely ultimates planeswalkers he plays. 

You should really play Lich's Mastery.  All you have to do is play it and you become "difficult to impossible" to beat in any black deck...  Oh, and Greg can play it!

Unknown

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wereotter

Rigsby said:

I'm not sure I see much difference between the carnage caused by creating a support which gives your creatures berserker and prevent damage, and creating a 32/32 with reach.

Those octopi are very, very big, and often wipe your opponent's board the turn they come into play, don't they?

Fair point. The difference will be that every creature that comes out from Vivien once that support is in play will benefit from the prevent damage until you can remove the support whereas the octopus can be taken out with a single kill spell and you're done with it. Additionally if you had enough power to throw at the octopus from creatures, or even just one creature with death touch, the octopus will die from damage. Giving the creatures prevent damage means that no matter how many creatures you throw at them, they will never die until either the support goes away, they're disabled then burned, or they're returned to hand (and if there was room in the hand, they'll likely come back out very quickly meaning you've only delayed the problem)

On top of that, your opponent only needs to have one creature in play to potentially take down your entire creature strategy as one creature on your opponent's board will be able to block all the creatures you're attacking with. So to that end, this would be a more powerful effect than the 32/32 octopus Kiora can make.

wereotter

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

Their ultimates can kill you given enough time, but they act more like an enrage timer than a push here to win timer.

You can still kill any of those planeswalkers after they ultimate without destroying their support before they kill you. If Vivien acts as some have proposed, you have little chance without getting lucky on your support removal as her wall of creatures that can’t take damage will make her impervious to damage that isn’t direct burn or maybe fliers.

That alone will set you so far back that a win becomes difficult to impossible against her. The only saving grace being Greg rarely ultimates planeswalkers he plays. 

You should really play Lich's Mastery.  All you have to do is play it and you become "difficult to impossible" to beat in any black deck...  Oh, and Greg can play it!

I'm choosing not to engage with you on this topic further. It's obvious we have different opinions, but when you decide to get snarky about it, I can't help but feel like you're simply trolling me. Either way, we're not making any headway convincing each other of our different opinions on a continuous prevent damage effect.

span_argoman

babar3355 said:

The reality is G does not have great answers to creatures.  Black does not have great answers for supports.  All colors have some weakness.  That is one of the defining characteristics of MTG and MTGPQ... And again, I don't think you guys are thinking this through if you really think that ult would be massively meta-warping and OP.

You say this but what weakness does Blue have in MtGPQ?

babar3355

span_argoman said:

babar3355 said:

The reality is G does not have great answers to creatures.  Black does not have great answers for supports.  All colors have some weakness.  That is one of the defining characteristics of MTG and MTGPQ... And again, I don't think you guys are thinking this through if you really think that ult would be massively meta-warping and OP.

You say this but what weakness does Blue have in MtGPQ?

Fair point... I think the idea was to make them struggle to generate enough mana.  But with STV, Startled Awake, and even Jodah, I am not sure they have a weakness. 

This is why we have created the following rules for MTGPQ:

Rule #1 of PQ: Play Blue

Rule #2 of PQ: If you don't play blue, reread rule #1. 

Rule #3 of PQ: If you still don't play blue, expect to lose at least one match.

[Trademarked by @madwren ]