Vivien Reid in MtGPQ?

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: M19 preview bundle?.

ElfNeedsFood

I’m looking forward to what they do with this one...

FindingHeart8

ElfNeedsFood said:

I’m looking forward to what they do with this one...

she's either going to be the best monogreen PW around, or she'll be utterly horrible and we'll hate her forever.

my guess is: +7 mana gain for green, +4 for red and white, -1 for rest (at lvl 60 of course).

Mburn7

ElfNeedsFood said:

I’m looking forward to what they do with this one...

Her first and second can probably stay the same.  Ult would just be a bigger buff, and probably until the start of your next turn.  With decent mana gains she'll be pretty sweet.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

ElfNeedsFood said:

I’m looking forward to what they do with this one...

Her first and second can probably stay the same.  Ult would just be a bigger buff, and probably until the start of your next turn.  With decent mana gains she'll be pretty sweet.

you don't think they'll give all her critters Prevent Damage? 

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

ElfNeedsFood said:

I’m looking forward to what they do with this one...

Her first and second can probably stay the same.  Ult would just be a bigger buff, and probably until the start of your next turn.  With decent mana gains she'll be pretty sweet.

you don't think they'll give all her critters Prevent Damage? 

Permanently?  Definitely not.  If it was still Hibernium?  Most likely yes lol

Gun Bunny

Remember that emblem effects are destroyable in PQ, but not in paper.

wereotter

Gun Bunny said:

Remember that emblem effects are destroyable in PQ, but not in paper.

But most planeswalker ultimates in this game don’t win you the game outright. Berserker and prevent damage means the opponent won’t be able to keep our creatures and will lose. 

ZW2007-

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

Blazer

I've had Teferi use his ult on me quite a bit, and Ob always seems to be able to use his second on my creatures but I agree they will probably tweak the 3rd for Vivian a little maybe a self-destruct support with like 5 or 6 shields like Vraska's 3rd 

wereotter

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

babar3355

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

ZW2007-

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Yes, reduce it to a "dies to removal" argument, by all means. The fact of the matter is, it would not be too powerful because it is an ultimate ability that doesn't automatically win the game. Literally can't win is a pretty bold statement. Lich's mastery doesn't care about your creatures. White Hour doesn't care about your support or hexproof creatures. River's Rebuke... do you see where I'm going with this? The point is, the effect is not so powerful that it can't be dealt with. It would act like a continuous one-sided board wipe until you could deal with it. Have you seen what Teferi's ult does? There is no reason that a mono-green planeswalker couldn't have an ult that makes a support like that, especially considering it is exactly what her paper counter-part does.

wereotter

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

GrizzoMtGPQ

wereotter said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

That makes it more like what Avacyn has, reach and prevent damage for one turn. That's super power and I would love to have it on demand. Can't be too expensive though or it's not worthy of an ultimate. It should cost along the same lines as what Karn's does. I actually like that approach: make the abilities a bit cheaper, not as game winning.

babar3355

wereotter said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

Seriously? I have listed  cards in literally every color.  How is it a 1-2 color solution?

I really don't think it would even be a top tier PW ultimate.  Much less "guarantee a loss" and "not healthy for the game".

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

Seriously? I have listed  cards in literally every color.  How is it a 1-2 color solution?

I really don't think it would even be a top tier PW ultimate.  Much less "guarantee a loss" and "not healthy for the game".

Most of your suggestions are at Rare and Mythic and quite expensive to cast, or are only partial solutions (non-Hixus disable supports, perilous voyage...ect).  And the general wipe ones are rather expensive to cast, so you are most likely going to lose all your creatures before you can recover.  
And most of your solutions are blue and white, hence the 1-2 color comment

So sure, you can deal with it, but having all your opponents creatures permanently (or semi-permanently) turn into an unhurtable wall (most likely with a buff as well) is probably going to hurt you a lot, if not outright lose you the game.  

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

Seriously? I have listed  cards in literally every color.  How is it a 1-2 color solution?

I really don't think it would even be a top tier PW ultimate.  Much less "guarantee a loss" and "not healthy for the game".

Most of your suggestions are at Rare and Mythic and quite expensive to cast, or are only partial solutions (non-Hixus disable supports, perilous voyage...ect).  And the general wipe ones are rather expensive to cast, so you are most likely going to lose all your creatures before you can recover.  
And most of your solutions are blue and white, hence the 1-2 color comment

So sure, you can deal with it, but having all your opponents creatures permanently (or semi-permanently) turn into an unhurtable wall (most likely with a buff as well) is probably going to hurt you a lot, if not outright lose you the game.  

wereotter

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

ZW2007- said:

Prevent damage doesn't stop them from being destroyed via spells or returned to their owners hand. Likewise the support itself could be destroyed and the creatures would lose those buffs, like Gun Bunny mentioned. I don't see it being an issue if they made it a support that gave those abilities. Let's not forget the great beating Greg took a few patches ago that rendered him unable to think properly again...I mean unable to use any ability besides his first.

The old "dies to removal" argument. Yes, that exists for literally every complaint people have made. Doesn't mean that the effect isn't overpowered. Also consider if her emblem gave prevent damage and all the other buffs, we'd just see her decks consist of entirely hexproof creatures, of which green has the most of, and then you literally can't win when facing her.

Ways to deal with hexproof indestructible creatures:
1. Mass removal spells (River's Rebuke, Great Aurora, Hour of Devastation [even removes prevent damage], etc)
2. Non-targeted removal and bounce spells (Perilous Voyage, Vona's Hunger, etc)
3. Creature control (Admiral Beckett Brass, Aryel, Wakening Sun's Avatar, etc)
4. Disable Supports (Hixus, Claustrophobia, Desert's Hold, etc)
5. Killing Supports (Gideon's Defeat, Settle the Wreckage, etc)
6. Combo Kills - Anything that temporarily disables a non-targeted creature and then target them with removal. (Bounding Krasis, Djeru's Renunciation, etc)
7. Ignore them - Just kill greg before he can kill you using superior skills than Greg.

I really don't think a skill like that would be remotely OP.  There are so many ways of dealing with it, and you would always know what to expect when facing her (even if Greg does get de-lobotomized).  I would argue you should probably be running some of the first 6 above in every competitive deck anyway.

If all your opponent’s creatures gain vigilance and prevent damage, then you’ve more or less gaurenteed a loss. Again, you’re just arguing dies to removal and reduced the solution to 1-2 colors. That’s not healthy for the game.

I can see it being a 1-turn effect, but not a permanent one.

Seriously? I have listed  cards in literally every color.  How is it a 1-2 color solution?

I really don't think it would even be a top tier PW ultimate.  Much less "guarantee a loss" and "not healthy for the game".

Many of these suggestions don’t work like you think they work. Vona’s Hunger will only kill two of three creatures at best then your army dies. Similar problem with Admiral Beckett Brass who requires you to have enough pirates, then only takes one creature. Literally the only thing you mentioned for green is Great Aurora, not something most of us want to use a card slot on. And, as far as standard is concerned, there’s precedent that HOD is going to rotate when M19 enters. If so, Djeru’s Renunciation leaves along with Hour of Devestation leaving basically River’s Rebuke, Hixus, and Akroma’s Vengeance and a few other mythic rare cards all in white or blue that can deal with it. Hence why I say 1-2 colors. 

babar3355

Mburn7 said:

Most of your suggestions are at Rare and Mythic and quite expensive to cast, or are only partial solutions (non-Hixus disable supports, perilous voyage...ect).  And the general wipe ones are rather expensive to cast, so you are most likely going to lose all your creatures before you can recover.  
And most of your solutions are blue and white, hence the 1-2 color comment

So sure, you can deal with it, but having all your opponents creatures permanently (or semi-permanently) turn into an unhurtable wall (most likely with a buff as well) is probably going to hurt you a lot, if not outright lose you the game.  

So it would be hard to deal with.... why should it be easy to deal with? 

I am not going to go through a list of all of the R/B/G options to deal with it, but there are plenty.  But why should every color have a good counter to every PW anyway?

Just confused why you guys think this would be insanely OP... beyond the ideas I threw out and the dozens of other options available, you can simply destroy the support token...  I mean come on.

wereotter

Planeswalkers more than any other thing in the game need to be balanced around each other. You can’t have playing one be an easy “I win” button because your opponent is in the wrong color. This is ESPECIALLY true for within color. Imagine across Ixalan where everyone is using Vivian and it either stalemates because both players get their emblems back to back, or just whoever gets it first wins. The very fact that color locked events exist means at the very least, green needs to be able to effectively deal with another green planeswalker ability.